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Tumble too powerful?

N'raac

First Post
They can get all the spells they really need at the earliest they can get them.

If, by "all the spells they really need", you mean "2 spells of the highest level they can cast, with the ability to cast one, two (if INT bonus) or three (specialist) today.

At one, MAYBE two spell per encounter, I'd love to know how many encounters you have during the adventuring day.

Since you are asserting he is pretty much impossible to hit, he either starts the encounter off casting a defensive spell, or he has cast some beforehand. I'd love to see the spell load carried by your hypothetical L7 wizard that can handle any occasion, ensure he is never a viable target for an attack and can handle, let's say, 3 or 4 encounters.

And I'm struggling to know how incompetent your fellow players must be if they're intentionally in the area of an AoE, especially considering wizards should always go first.

Your initiative bonus is what, again, to guarantee you go first when you get a bad d20 roll and your teammates roll well or the enemy does, and chooses to close to melee).

Talking is a free action.If you believe using spells intelligently is metagaming, I think you need to work on your definition.

I think assuming his teammate can provide a description of the area the wizard cannot see which is so accurate the wizard can accurately target spells before any of the participants can move enough to change the landscape as a free action included in a 10 second series of actions is pretty clearly not role playing a reasonable simulation of the actual situation. To me, counting squares on the grid is metagaming - how many people have a sense of spatial relations sufficient to be that precise with a quick glance?

If a wizard gets attacked, he's doing it wrong.

I'm more inclined to believe if the wizard never feels endangered, the GM is doing it wrong. But we all have our own game styles.

To conclude, show me the full character writeup and spell load at, say, L7 or so. Or not - it really isn't germane to the thread.
 

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Cyclone_Joker

First Post
If, by "all the spells they really need", you mean "2 spells of the highest level they can cast,
Or four. But if you really need more, Collegiate Wizard is cool, even if your DM is being insane, although by the time you get teleport, there's no excuse not to have a complete spellbook.
with the ability to cast one, two (if INT bonus) or three (specialist) today.
Uh... So now you only have the highest level spells you can cast? 'Cuz last I checked, you keep lower level slots when you level up, they don't magically disappear.
Since you are asserting he is pretty much impossible to hit, he either starts the encounter off casting a defensive spell, or he has cast some beforehand.
And we have a winner.
I'd love to see the spell load carried by your hypothetical L7 wizard that can handle any occasion, ensure he is never a viable target for an attack and can handle, let's say, 3 or 4 encounters.
Conjurer with Uncanny Forethought, Celerity tree, and that immediate teleport from DotU. You're welcome, and the conjurer is completely unecessary. I, personally, prefer elven generalists, but the immediate teleports are really cool.
Your initiative bonus is what, again, to guarantee you go first when you get a bad d20 roll and your teammates roll well or the enemy does, and chooses to close to melee).
Dexterity let's say 14 if you're an elf, so +2+4(Improved Initiative)+4(Hummingbird familiar)+5(Nerveskitter), for a +15 before magic items or persistent buffs.

Adding in items, since it's not like wizards have as much to buy, we add in an Eager Warning gauntlet, Sandals of the Vagabond, a Belt of Battle, and a Ring of Anticipation for a total of +26 while rolling 2d20 and taking the higher, and this is still without dexterity boosters. And this is just off the top of my head, I could probably squeeze another +4 or so onto it before resorting to stat boosts.

All of this is before Contingency, too, so yeah. Wizards go first. One of the many reasons I advocate in an optimized group to just carry a wand of Nerveskitter and to never bother with initiative.
I think assuming his teammate can provide a description of the area the wizard cannot see which is so accurate the wizard can accurately target spells before any of the participants can move enough to change the landscape as a free action included in a 10 second series of actions is pretty clearly not role playing a reasonable simulation of the actual situation.
Best AoE spells have a 20' radius. You don't have to be precise.
To me, counting squares on the grid is metagaming - how many people have a sense of spatial relations sufficient to be that precise with a quick glance?
I'm pretty sure I can tell when someone is within 20' of me. Also, how many people are literally twice as smart as the smartest human possible?

Also, if that's metagaming, charging someone at the end of your range, basic movement, and more, are all metagaming. You have to accept some of the abstractions or the game doesn't work.
I'm more inclined to believe if the wizard never feels endangered, the GM is doing it wrong. But we all have our own game styles.
Eh. I don't play with wizards for exactly that reason. It's impossible to actually threaten one.
To conclude, show me the full character writeup and spell load at, say, L7 or so. Or not - it really isn't germane to the thread.
Grey Elf Domain Generalist 5/Incantatrix 2 is a good example, or I could go with Illusionist 1(Or any other wizard 1 if flaws are on the table)/Anima Mage 6. Either way, Uncanny Forethought says hi and that loadouts don't mean much. Basically, though, pack Nerveskitter, Celerity, Stinking Cloud/Evard's Kinky Tentacles/Other instawins, leave some open in case of emergency, and proceed to stomp anything you run into by being a spontaneous caster with an almost arbitrary number of spells.
 

N'raac

First Post
Or four. But if you really need more, Collegiate Wizard is cool, even if your DM is being insane, although by the time you get teleport, there's no excuse not to have a complete spellbook.

Two reasons: money and encumbrance. And a complete spellbook does not allow complete memorization.

I would also add that I don't find a GM seeking to enforce some balance and challenge in his game is "completely insane". You are claiming omnipotence for wizards. My experience is that this happens only when GM's are insanely liberal.

Uh... So now you only have the highest level spells you can cast? 'Cuz last I checked, you keep lower level slots when you level up, they don't magically disappear.

That's my starting point. Lower level spells lose DC's and become less relevant, typically becoming utilities over time. A couple of levels down, probably still some attack spells in there.

And we have a winner.

You said you don't run out of spells because you use only one, maybe 2, per encounter. The ones you cast beforehand also contribute to running out of spells. Still not seeing your spell load.

Conjurer with Uncanny Forethought, Celerity tree, and that immediate teleport from DotU. You're welcome, and the conjurer is completely unecessary. I, personally, prefer elven generalists, but the immediate teleports are really cool.

First off, I'd be banning Uncanny Forethought's second ability (I'd have to consider the first para - it seems to largely override the Sorcerer class, unless we give them a similar feat to broaden their spell selection).

Celerity is fourth level, and leaves you Dazed - best take out all your opponents. I also note it's another "generally viewed as broken and therefore banned" spell. I'm not sure we're proving much beyond "late 3e material was over the top and there's a reason it didn't make its way to later editions". It also combines only with spells you have selected - you need a full round action to use those empty slots, remember?

Still waiting for build and spell load, not examples of broken abilities one might take, but how you place them together in a character.

Dexterity let's say 14 if you're an elf, so +2+4(Improved Initiative)+4(Hummingbird familiar)+5(Nerveskitter), for a +15 before magic items or persistent buffs.

I'm counting a lot of feats - where's that build? Looks like the humming bird comes from a magazine article, so we're assuming open season on sources. Nerveskitter is a spell - so we use only one, maybe two, spells per encounter, do we? Can't use Uncanny Forethought for that - you don't want it to become a full round action. Still awaiting that spell load.

Adding in items, since it's not like wizards have as much to buy, we add in an Eager Warning gauntlet, Sandals of the Vagabond, a Belt of Battle, and a Ring of Anticipation for a total of +26 while rolling 2d20 and taking the higher, and this is still without dexterity boosters. And this is just off the top of my head, I could probably squeeze another +4 or so onto it before resorting to stat boosts.

Assuming you are that focused on winning initiative (STILL waiting on that full build), how focused are your teammates? I believe you still need to beat their rolls to move first.

All of this is before Contingency, too, so yeah. Wizards go first. One of the many reasons I advocate in an optimized group to just carry a wand of Nerveskitter and to never bother with initiative.

Contingency being a spell few L7 wizards are casting, so what level are we up to before your wizard can operate, and how does he survive to get there? To the wand, nerveskitter is an immediate action, so you get one party member. Assuming you carry that wand everywhere you go, of course - you don't have time to draw it.

Best AoE spells have a 20' radius. You don't have to be precise.

Unless you want to get the enemies and not the allies, of course. If you can't see, so much for spells with targets. The fact that a spread's "effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see." implies it can't be cast to start somewhere you can't see, and that this is an exception to most areas of effect.

I'm pretty sure I can tell when someone is within 20' of me. Also, how many people are literally twice as smart as the smartest human possible?

In a brief glance precise enough to determine he's less than 20' away from his ally and more than 20' away from your teammate? I doubt it. To your question, literally no one is twice as smart as the smartest human, as the smartest human is precisely 100% as smart as the smartest human.

Also, if that's metagaming, charging someone at the end of your range, basic movement, and more, are all metagaming. You have to accept some of the abstractions or the game doesn't work.

They are metagaming, to an extent. There would be nothing wrong with no grid - you say what you plan on doing. "I will close 10' and cast a Fireball centering here", "I move towards the War Elephant - I will attack if I can get there without a charge, or close to melee range further if I need a full move". Now get out the ruler. Few people play this style, but I've also never had anyone suggest they can cast spells by verbal description of an unseen area either.

Grey Elf Domain Generalist 5/Incantatrix 2 is a good example, or I could go with Illusionist 1(Or any other wizard 1 if flaws are on the table)/Anima Mage 6. Either way, Uncanny Forethought says hi and that loadouts don't mean much. Basically, though, pack Nerveskitter, Celerity, Stinking Cloud/Evard's Kinky Tentacles/Other instawins, leave some open in case of emergency, and proceed to stomp anything you run into by being a spontaneous caster with an almost arbitrary number of spells.

And still no build, spell load, etc. Most characters with unlimited resources do tend to appear quite overpowered.
 

Cyclone_Joker

First Post
Two reasons: money and encumbrance. And a complete spellbook does not allow complete memorization.
Uncanny Forethought says hi.
I would also add that I don't find a GM seeking to enforce some balance and challenge in his game is "completely insane".
When it comes down to basically complete fiat, though, it does.
You are claiming omnipotence for wizards. My experience is that this happens only when GM's are insanely liberal.
Then your experience is wrong.
That's my starting point. Lower level spells lose DC's and become less relevant, typically becoming utilities over time. A couple of levels down, probably still some attack spells in there.
Then you're using the wrong spells.
You said you don't run out of spells because you use only one, maybe 2, per encounter. The ones you cast beforehand also contribute to running out of spells.
Because by the time you get free persists, of course you never have any slots at all.
Still not seeing your spell load.
Then you can't read. Hardly my problem.
First off, I'd be banning Uncanny Forethought's second ability
Not my problem.
Celerity is fourth level, and leaves you Dazed - best take out all your opponents.
Third Eye: Clarity. Cheap, effective, never leave home without it.
I also note it's another "generally viewed as broken and therefore banned" spell.
Cool. And if you ban every spell above second level, wizards are totally balanced, amirite?
I'm not sure we're proving much beyond "late 3e material was over the top and there's a reason it didn't make its way to later editions".
We seem to not only have different definitions of "overpowered," considering how you appear to find Complete Scoundrel and Tome of Magic overpowered, but also "making it into later editions," given the abundance of extra actions in 4e.
It also combines only with spells you have selected - you need a full round action to use those empty slots, remember?
I hardly see a problem with that.
Still waiting for build and spell load, not examples of broken abilities one might take, but how you place them together in a character.
I've already given it to you.
I'm counting a lot of feats
Then you're having trouble counting. Improved Initiative is free.
- where's that build?
Read it yourself.
Looks like the humming bird comes from a magazine article, so we're assuming open season on sources.
Meh. It's hardly mandatory, just a winmore.
Nerveskitter is a spell - so we use only one, maybe two, spells per encounter, do we?
Because first level spells are so useful at those high levels, right?
Can't use Uncanny Forethought for that - you don't want it to become a full round action.
And? I expect you to actually read my post before arguing against it.
Still awaiting that spell load.
Still waiting for you to read.
Assuming you are that focused on winning initiative (STILL waiting on that full build), how focused are your teammates?
Not focused enough to be spellcasters, apparently, so they don't matter.

Unless you're telling me my teammates are incompetent enough to actually waste money in something they'll lose regardless? Next you'll be telling me they actually put more than a +1 enhancement bonus on their armor.
I believe you still need to beat their rolls to move first.
...You're joking, right?
Contingency being a spell few L7 wizards are casting, so what level are we up to before your wizard can operate,
Level one, but hey, if you want me to take random pieces of your post out of context, I'd be glad to oblige.
and how does he survive to get there?
By being a wizard, and therefore winning.
To the wand, nerveskitter is an immediate action, so you get one party member.
No, casters are using from their slots. Non-casters are using it to break Flat-Footed.
Assuming you carry that wand everywhere you go, of course - you don't have time to draw it.
Wand chambers. Do try to keep up.
Unless you want to get the enemies and not the allies, of course.
If my partymates were such Darwin Award material as to get caught in my spell, I'm not feeling terribly sympathetic.
If you can't see, so much for spells with targets. The fact that a spread's "effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see." implies it can't be cast to start somewhere you can't see, and that this is an exception to most areas of effect.
...Please, please try to at least achieve a minimal level of reading comprehension.
In a brief glance precise enough to determine he's less than 20' away from his ally and more than 20' away from your teammate? I doubt it.
Then you obviously have some problems with spacial reasoning. Again, hardly my problem.
To your question, literally no one is twice as smart as the smartest human, as the smartest human is precisely 100% as smart as the smartest human
Reading comprehension is cool. I'd suggest you reread my post, but that'd be impossible as its' apparent you've not actually read it yet.
They are metagaming, to an extent. There would be nothing wrong with no grid - you say what you plan on doing. "I will close 10' and cast a Fireball centering here", "I move towards the War Elephant - I will attack if I can get there without a charge, or close to melee range further if I need a full move". Now get out the ruler. Few people play this style,
Because it's against the rules.
but I've also never had anyone suggest they can cast spells by verbal description of an unseen area either.
Are you familiar with the concept of "area of effect?" Or at least the word "radius?"
And still no build, spell load, etc.
This is quite tiresome. Learn to read. I enjoy strong debate, but I have little patience for those incapable of even the very lowest levels of reading comprehension.
Most characters with unlimited resources do tend to appear quite overpowered.
Most characters with arbitrary restrictions, when seen by someone with little advanced understanding of the game's mechanics, seem much weaker than they are. Want to compare notes?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
This is quite tiresome. Learn to read. I enjoy strong debate, but I have little patience for those incapable of even the very lowest levels of reading comprehension.


Cyclone Joker, you're new, so how about we take an opportunity...

When you created your account, you agreed to abide by the Rules of EN World. Rule #1 is "Keep it civil."

Insulting people is not civil. Please don't do it. That may have been acceptable in other places you've been, but it isn't here. We expect you to show a modicum of respect for people, and their opinions. If you find you can't, we expect you to hold your post until you can.

I hope that's clear. If it isn't, please send a PM or e-mail to any of the mods to discuss how we apply our rules. Our contact information is in a post stickied to the top of the Meta forum.

Thanks, all, we now return you to your normally scheduled thread...
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
It is very easy. Not every Wizard has every spell and the ability to cast everything at the right time. Also, in close quarters like dungeons usually are a Wizard has to be close to the action or else they are useless. Sure, Wizards are powerful and have the ability to trump anything, but they are not always in the perfect place with the perfect spells to handle everything.

Crothian, just a quick query:

Did you ever have high HP or AC monsters just go after the Wizards anyway, provoking AoOs? Were the fighters able to shut them down and prevent them getting to the Wizards?

Cheers!
 

Chase A.

First Post
Crothian, just a quick query:

Did you ever have high HP or AC monsters just go after the Wizards anyway, provoking AoOs? Were the fighters able to shut them down and prevent them getting to the Wizards?

Cheers!
Im thinking about doing this before I introduce my new tumble rule so the players will understand why auto-tumble is broken.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
With only a 15 DC tumble check to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity from anything, tumble seems a but overpowered to me. With synergy bonuses and good stats a 6th level character can auto-tumble against anything from a kobald to a demigod. I have thought about changing tumble so that your tumble check equals your AC instead. Thus making tumble a bit more realistic based on the level of whatever youre fighting. Thoughts?

Getting the DC right of skill checks is quite tricky. You've got the competing problems of making it an appropriate challenge whilst not wanting to make the mathematics too difficult! The typical use of Tumble in my campaigns found the rogue ending up the middle of the monsters - and thus vulnerable to lots of attacks. So, I was absolutely fine with them using it!

Personally, if I wanted a scaling DC, I'd use the Challenge Rating of the monster, as that (at least) should scale according to the level of the character. It'd be easy enough to put the DC at 10+CR or 15+CR depending on how difficult you wanted it to be. The additional feats and magic items that players get would allow them to increase their chances of doing it successfully beyond the basic scaling of one skill point per level. The drawback of such a method is that it doesn't allow anything but full commitment to the skill.

The trouble with linking it to anything else is that everything else is really inconsistent! I could see an argument to modifying it by the Dex of whatever you're tumbling past, but there are a lot of other potential bonuses that could apply. It can get too much in the middle of the session to remember them all!

Pathfinder, as noted, uses a base DC of the Combat Maneuver Defence, which is calculated as 10+Base Attack+Str+Dex+Special Size. If you're interested, you can check the rules on these pages: Acrobatics and Combat. Personally, I think CMD makes tumbling past monsters far too hard. I've listed some sample DCs below:

CR 1: Ghoul (DC 14), Gnoll (DC 13), Troglodyte (DC 11),
CR 5: Troll (DC 22), Green Hag (DC 24), Manticore (DC 24), Mummy (DC 23), Bearded Devil (DC 22)
CR 10: Clay Golem (DC 30), Fire Giant (DC 31), Rakshasa (DC 29)
CR 15: Adult Gold Dragon (DC 40), Neothelid (DC 37), Phoenix (DC 50)
CR 20: Balor (DC 54), Ancient Gold Dragon (DC 53), Pit Fiend (DC 53)

Cheers!
 

Crothian

First Post
Crothian, just a quick query:

Did you ever have high HP or AC monsters just go after the Wizards anyway, provoking AoOs? Were the fighters able to shut them down and prevent them getting to the Wizards?

Cheers!

Probably. It's been years since anyone played a Wizard.
 


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