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Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

I think that's true, with two important caveats:

One, D&D is by default a DM-driven game, is written as such (with the possible exception of 4e), and is played as such.

Two, it's a lot easier to find one DM good enough to run a game than to find an entire group of players who are all good enough to run a game.
I agree with your points. It's why I find all this talk about Charm Person a little trivial. Don't play 3.X games as player-driven! They suck at it! That's pretty damn obvious.

What this whole argument obscures is what I feel is a class of games not yet mentioned; those 3.X games with DM-centric adjudication where the DM still feels that the spell system as presented requires them to make more adjudication than they feel is necessary. Those are DMs who could certainly feel that 3.X provides them with a weak base to support classic D&D play, because they don't feel that the game should require houseruling to the extent it does to support their classic dungeoncrawl or LotR style wilderness trek.
 
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What this whole argument obscures is what I feel is a class of games not yet mentioned; those 3.X games with DM-centric adjudication where the DM still feels that the spell system as presented requires them to make more adjudication than they feel is necessary. Those are DMs who could certainly feel that 3.X provides them with a weak base to support classic D&D play, because they don't feel that the game should require houseruling to the extent it does to support their classic dungeoncrawl or LotR style wilderness trek.

But have we had any of those DM's post in this thread? There seem to be two class of posters in the main at the moment, 4e DMs who appreciate a ruleset where the players have as much say as the DM in the unfolding campaign world, and those of us who are satisfied with some form of 3x.

EDIT: I would imagine that we have reached a point in the market where people can find the sort of game system that suits them, which is why I find constant demands to alter the 3x magic system a bit annoying. If you don't like it, find the game you like and support it. Now personally, I think Pathfinder handles both your examples pretty well, but if I wanted to recreate the feel of Basic Dungeons and Dragons, I would play basic Dungeons and Dragons. If I want a LotR wilderness campaign, I would play One Ring, which does an excellent job of capturing that feel. Which is why I think such posters have not shown up en masse; they have mostly migrated would be my guess.
 
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But have we had any of those DM's post in this thread? There seem to be two class of posters in the main at the moment, 4e DMs who appreciate a ruleset where the players have as much say as the DM in the unfolding campaign world, and those of us who are satisfied with some form of 3x.

EDIT: I would imagine that we have reached a point in the market where people can find the sort of game system that suits them, which is why I find constant demands to alter the 3x magic system a bit annoying. If you don't like it, find the game you like and support it. Now personally, I think Pathfinder handles both your examples pretty well, but if I wanted to recreate the feel of Basic Dungeons and Dragons, I would play basic Dungeons and Dragons. If I want a LotR wilderness campaign, I would play One Ring, which does an excellent job of capturing that feel. Which is why I think such posters have not shown up en masse; they have mostly migrated would be my guess.
All probably true, which is probably why a lot of the spellcasters vs martials debate has died down over the last few years. Still, the OP got the idea from somewhere, right? And I'm sure there are still people who play 3.X/PF because of network effects but wouldn't mind some changes in a hypothetical PF 2.0. (And discussion of a PF 2.0 is not a hypothetical on the Paizo boards, although not supported by Paizo itself.)
 

Regarding Charm and Its Varying Iterations in D&D

Given that Charm has found its way as a focal point for discussion, I figured I would break out its functionality in varying rulesets and what, if anything, it can contribute to this discussion. First, I'm going to canvass 3.x Charm and I'm going to include a quote from a thread sometime ago where @N'raac and myself were discussing its usage as a constraint on spellcasters. We were also discussing the pervasiveness of Arcana/Spellcraft acumen by the elite and layfolk (as we have elsewhere including this thread) as it is applicable to the adjudication.

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Originally Posted by Manbearcat

A couple of things here. I've never ruled (in any edition) that the target of a successful Charm spell understands that they were under the effects of a mental compulsion for the duration of the spell. Only in scenarios of extreme outliers (such as if the player tries to get the NPC to do something specifically antagonistic toward its own nature...or if the NPC is a well accomplished spellcaster) would I consider this ruling.

My understanding is that the rulebooks agree with that approach. I can't find it right quick in my old books but I know the 3.x books find it this way on PHB p177:

"Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. For example, if you secretly cast charm person on a creature and its saving throw succeeds, it knows that someone used magic against it, but it can’t tell what you were trying to do. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, such as charm person, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells"

It provides ruling guidance for successful saves only and is silent on failed saves;


I still remain unconvinced that the 3.x ruleset provides guidance and/or support for GMs to unilaterally impose punitive results, post-usage, to the player who deployed it (thus turning it into a "nuclear option" as @pemerton put it). The spell specifically doesn't lead you to this adjudication nor does any advice I have seen. I have never used it as such. Use charm versus someone, or in the presence of someone, with Knowledge Arcana or Spellcraft ranks? Yes, a check should certainly be made to determine if Charm was deployed. This does, of course, presuppose that the GM has world built to levels of extremely fine resolution; that most, all, bit-player and minor NPCs have their knowledge skills statted and that every situation/locale is pre-ordained to have a party with Knowledge Arcana or Spellcraft present. Conversely, you can work off the presupposition that all castes have 1 rank of the relevant skills and get a check to determine if they have any concept of "Charm" spells. Both of those, conceptually, are "A Bridge Too Far" for myself.

D&D 3.x

Resolution: Save vs Will. Bonus to saving throw if being threatened. Orders = opposed Charisma check.

Effect: Attain friendly/trusted ally status.

Classic Usage: Pacification in combat or in social conflict; parlay, information gathering, or social wheel-greasing.

Target recognition of enchantment: Nothing in spell description nor anything specifically called out in GMing advice. As noted above, if your world presupposes that either (i) every person in the world has ranks in Knowledge Arcana/Spellcraft or (ii) there is always someone at the relevant locale that has Knowledge Arcana/Spellcraft, then it is reasonable to mechanically resolve the "Charm Awareness" as an NPC skill roll.


D&D 4e (multiple iterations)

Resolution: Sub Arcana for Bluff and/or Diplomacy on a singular effort to persuade.

Effect: Successful task resolution or gain a success in a Social Skill Challenge. Attain friendly/trusted ally
status for the resolution of this panel/situation/scene.

Classic Usage: Social conflict task resolution or Skill Challenge; parlay, information gathering, or social wheel-greasing.

Target recognition of enchantment: Nothing in spell description nor anything specifically called out in advice.


13th Age

Resolution: Charisma + Level vs Mental Defense. If attacked or ordered to attack, target gains save each each turn.

Effect: Out of combat pacification. You are now friends for good unless you behave hostile toward them.

Classic Usage: Pacification in combat or in social conflict; parlay, information gathering, or social wheel-greasing.

Target recognition of enchantment: Mechanically defined; if you miss by 4 + or roll a natural 1, the target, and his buddies, are aware of the Charm effort and hostility should be the expected response.


Dungeon World

Resolution: The charm effect is guaranteed (player fiat) but there may be complications that the player gets to choose. Roll 2d6 + Int (same for any spell). On 10 + you cast the spell and retain it for later use. On 7-9 the spell is cast but choose one:

* You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot. The GM will tell you how (THIS could very well be the "target is aware of charm effort" complicaton...or it could be something more interesting)
* The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast; take - 1 ongoing to cast spells until the next time you Prepare Spells.
* After it is cast, the spell is forgotten. You cannot cast the spell again until you Prepare Spells.

Effect: Out of combat pacification. You are now friends for good unless you behave hostile toward them.

Classic Usage: Pacification in combat or in social conflict; parlay, information gathering, or social wheel-greasing.

Target recognition of enchantment: Nothing in spell description nor anything specifically called out in advice.


Of note; all of these rules systems offer a mundane analog for quelling hostilities/parlay facilitation/social conflict grease/adjusting NPC reaction.
 

I still remain unconvinced that the 3.x ruleset provides guidance and/or support for GMs to unilaterally impose punitive results, post-usage, to the player who deployed it (thus turning it into a "nuclear option" as @pemerton put it).
Well, I can appreciate that you're at least presenting a rational argument and providing some facts, but I don't think it holds.

Is it clear what "residue" an enchantment spell would leave in the mind of the charmed? No. That's true.

However, I think that the basic nature of casting a spell and the notion of charm effects are within the realm of common knowledge, and would not require a trained check. That is, I think that a person watching a wizard cast a spell knows that magic exists and realizes that the wizard is casting a spell of some sort. And I think that a person whose attitude is changed by a charm remembers the actions that he took while charmed, realizes the extent to which they are out of character for him, and knows that magic can sometimes take away a person's free will. Does he know what Charm Person is, whether it was arcane or divine, what level of spell it is, or how to protect himself from it? That's trained knowledge.

I don't see it enumerated in the Charm spell that it causes amnesia or distorts the subject's self-awareness; to me that's an added benefit if you assume that it does.

However, that's just my opinion, and reasonable people could differ on these things.

But that's not really the point.

What's the point? Rich, important people defend themselves. Any person of consequence can reasonably be assumed to spend a sensible amount of resources on self-defense.

I think it's reasonable to assume, for instance, that a top-flight NPC has some cast a Divination spell every day and ask "Hey, is anything bad about to happen to the King today?", and gets an answer. Enchantment auras can be detected with a cantrip. I don't think anyone with an enchantment aura would ever be allowed in the presence of a king. Stronghold Builder's Guidebook has a variety of magical architecture that implements defensive spell effects for these kinds of purposes.

Likewise, I think any powerful entity takes steps to make sure that no one can sneak invisibly into its lair, teleport in, or magically eavesdrop. There are various ways of doing that. It's just common sense.

What I don't understand is why people who think that players can actively engage mechanics to their advantage don't think that DMs can do the same thing.
 

I think its worth noting, in that Paizo is the current caretaker of the 3.x Dungeons and Dragons experience, that their interpretation of Charm Person is that, once the spell wears off, the person affected is possibly aware, to some degree, that they were enchanted. Sometimes the NPCs are aware that it worked out to their benefit anyway and forgive, sometimes they are going to be angry. Likewise, Paizo tends to rule that anyone with Spellcraft skills can identify "tells" to indicate when a person is suffering from an enchantment. I tend to roll this way myself with it, and the understanding suits my sense of verisimilitude: people, once they are no longer enchanted, can intelligently put two and two together. Magic can be discerned by the knowledgable without even resorting to Detect Magic, though Detect Magic settles the issue, and the way NPCs react is going to depend on the NPC.

In our current campaign, the PCs enchanted (charmed) a troglodyte, used the troglodyte to befriend the tribe, and once the enchantment wore off, had sufficiently proved their good will by healing up the tribe and killing off a number of boggards, that the troglodyte forgave them.
 

But that's not really the point.

What's the point? Rich, important people defend themselves. Any person of consequence can reasonably be assumed to spend a sensible amount of resources on self-defense.

This is perfectly well and good but it points out two areas of deep divergence between you and I with respect to our inclinations in gaming:

1 - The primacy of logic in your games is about process simulation and world-building justification. As such, you use these to facilitate predicates for your GMing. The primacy of logic in my games is about genre emulation and "what makes for an engaging, conflict-charged scene." My primacy may very well be secondary to you just as your primacy is secondary to me. I want a coherent world, of course, but the primary source of theatre/conflict/engagement for myself is zoomed in to the scene level and what is happening "on screen." Everything else is subordinate to that consideration.

2 - From a philosophical perspective, I do not consider elites to be anywhere near as secure as you do. Further, I don't believe that the infrastructure, in any era, supports the level of sound security that you extoll as means to satisfy your thesis; adjudication favoring the presupposition of all manner of knowledge, built-in failsafes and contingencies. As such, any consistent ruling on such grounds, for the sake of fidelity to simulation of process, is extremely tenuous for me. Power brokers, power organizations have historically had an extraordinary level of vulnerability and fragility built into their existence/machines. I consider that just 50 years ago, the most powerful man in the world was murdered by a lone gunman (of very average intellect and extraordinary mental instability), with a 6.5 mm Carcano model rifle from the 5th floor of the Texas School Book Depository building. It is difficult for me to square GM-forced circumvention of Charm on a chamberlain on the basis of fidelity to process-sim's expectation of the "infallible security" of a King's infrastructure. Whats more, as per 1, I'm less concerned with fidelity to that model (even if I was moved by its accuracy) than I am fidelity to genre. Is it reasonable to expect Wizards to ensorcell their words with magic honey and successfully manipulate a steward (etc) in High Fantasy Action/Adventure? Sure. Just as I expect its reasonable to expect Fighters to "enfighterate" their axe into a giant, separating his head from his body. The problem (the point of the thread) lies with the ruleset facilitating Wizards doing the former and the latter (and then some) while Fighters can only do the former.
 

All probably true, which is probably why a lot of the spellcasters vs martials debate has died down over the last few years. Still, the OP got the idea from somewhere, right? And I'm sure there are still people who play 3.X/PF because of network effects but wouldn't mind some changes in a hypothetical PF 2.0. (And discussion of a PF 2.0 is not a hypothetical on the Paizo boards, although not supported by Paizo itself.)

I'm certainly a 3x/PF supporter and I would LOVE some change. I'm still waiting for the 4e (not to be confused with WOTC 4e) I would play and keep hoping that either WOTC (less likely with 5e) or Paizo (still less likely) will provide it.

There are a whole lotta people I game with, 3x/PF players, that would love to see changes. We're only hanging on to 3x/PF because there's nothing else. We'll keep voicing our opinions and hope that one day, a 3x/PF core with narrative changes emerges and we can stop our 100 and 1 house rules.
 

The primacy of logic in my games is about genre emulation and "what makes for an engaging, conflict-charged scene."
Then, if a player action makes a scene boring or removes the conflict, I think you'd be well justified in using the means at your disposal to either preserve the genre atmosphere you want, or add in a new element that creates the desired conflict.

I want a coherent world, of course, but the primary source of theatre/conflict/engagement for myself is zoomed in to the scene level and what is happening "on screen." Everything else is subordinate to that consideration.
Okay. That is a legitimate difference and I'm probably less concerned with the "on screen" than you are.

2 - From a philosophical perspective, I do not consider elites to be anywhere near as secure as you do. Further, I don't believe that the infrastructure, in any era, supports the level of sound security that you extoll as means to satisfy your thesis; adjudication favoring the presupposition of all manner of knowledge, built-in failsafes and contingencies.
I think that if magic is so powerful, it certainly does have the power to be used defensively.

If you want to set a different baseline than I do as to how effectively you feel that purpose is served, you're welcome to. If single actors do have that much power (regardless of whether or not they are PCs) and ostensibly important NPCs don't, that likely puts an anarchistic bent on the campaign world. After all, if anyone can just teleport into a treasury and walk away with a full load of gold, there likely is no treasury. If the king isn't mind-blanked and protected by an army of wizards, he's not likely to stay a king very long. If you're trying to emulate a genre in which magic is less powerful than it is in D&D (which is pretty much anything, really), then D&D needs to be modified to get you there.

I think you probably care at least enough about world-building to realize all this. However, power to the people is a viable style, and it certainly does have conflict.

In the absence of the big NPCs regularly having countermeasures to most common tactics, the meaning of the word "balance" definitely changes.

Is it reasonable to expect Wizards to ensorcell their words with magic honey and successfully manipulate a steward (etc) in High Fantasy Action/Adventure? Sure. Just as I expect its reasonable to expect Fighters to "enfighterate" their axe into a giant, separating his head from his body. The problem (the point of the thread) lies with the ruleset facilitating Wizards doing the former and the latter (and then some) while Fighters can only do the former.
If I understand correctly, your issue here is that hit points unfairly penalize the martial types?

If you're saying that spellcasters being able to bypass hp and noncasters not being able to do that is a problem, then I'm inclined to agree.

I'm certainly a 3x/PF supporter and I would LOVE some change. I'm still waiting for the 4e (not to be confused with WOTC 4e) I would play and keep hoping that either WOTC (less likely with 5e) or Paizo (still less likely) will provide it.
Hear, hear. Not liking one set of changes is not to be confused with close-mindedness. I'm up for change, just not the kind that makes magic and not magic "power sources" of equal scope.
 
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Is it reasonable to expect Wizards to ensorcell their words with magic honey and successfully manipulate a steward (etc) in High Fantasy Action/Adventure? Sure. Just as I expect its reasonable to expect Fighters to "enfighterate" their axe into a giant, separating his head from his body. The problem (the point of the thread) lies with the ruleset facilitating Wizards doing the former and the latter (and then some) while Fighters can only do the former.

I must admit, I have never seen a PF game where the wizard used an ax, though I did have that one dwarven wizard who was bonded to his hammer. That was a fun character. But the fighters were still much better fighters than he was, at least after 1st level, when the hp differential leveled off (He was a high Constitution wizard with a lot of hit-points. I think we were trying out bonus racial hit-points in that game from the Alpha or Beta playtest.)
 

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