Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Dwimmerlied]

I have a session coming up. I think there may be an opportunity to frame a Skill Challenge centered around "THE OBSTINATE CHAMBERLAIN AND HIS VEXING NON-COMPLIANCE" only with a demonic underling as chamberlain and a demon lord as king. This could be amusing. If that situation materializes, I may post results if I have time.

Awesome. Bonus points if Shrodinger can make a cameo!

 

[Campbell]

Don't forget the giant worm and a city under siege in the middle of the desert by nomads*.

*They got tired of nobody wanting to talk to them.

 

[Manbearcat]

Awesome. Bonus points if Shrodinger can make a cameo!

My game is fraught with Shrodinger elements so that shouldn't be too terribly difficult. I'll see what I can do

Don't forget the giant worm and a city under siege in the middle of the desert by nomads*.

*They got tired of nobody wanting to talk to them.

In truth, I've sort of lost my interest in this thread at this point. Was this brought up over the last 10 pages or is this a shout out to the former "Surprising the GM thread" with Hussar and his giant centipede and the round and round over "thematically relevant"?

 

[Dwimmerlied]

How is it that every piece of evidence given so far for the brokenness of the game is debatable?

 

[Dwimmerlied]

In truth, I've sort of lost my interest in this thread at this point. Was this brought up over the last 10 pages or is this a shout out to the former "Surprising the GM thread" with Hussar and his giant centipede and the round and round over "thematically relevant"?

Yeah, I saw the reference as a complete abandonment of any pretence that this thread was addressing an issue independent of the Surprising the GM thread . There never was a chamberlain. It was a centipede in disguise!

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah, I saw the reference as a complete abandonment of any pretence that this thread was addressing an issue independent of the Surprising the GM thread . There never was a chamberlain. It was a centipede in disguise!

Someone should write an adventure with all of the "Enworldisms" from the various threads over the years. That would be a ridiculously amusing Pulp D&D Fiction mash-up of mommy kissing booboos, hands being shouted back on, Shrodinger's Gorges, Louie Lizard Man popping out of duplicator boxes in an endless stream of guard duty relief, and Bob the Wizard riding centipedes through deserts, toward a city under siege, while the local Bedouin chase him en masse as they vehemently protest their thematic irrelevance in unified chorus.

 

[Dwimmerlied]

Someone should write an adventure with all of the "Enworldisms" from the various threads over the years. That would be a ridiculously amusing Pulp D&D Fiction mash-up of mommy kissing booboos, hands being shouted back on, Shrodinger's Gorges, Louie Lizard Man popping out of duplicator boxes in an endless stream of guard duty relief, and Bob the Wizard riding centipedes through deserts, toward a city under siege, while the local Bedouin chase him en masse as they vehemently protest their thematic irrelevance in unified chorus.

If this post is anything to go by, I'd be in stitches for hours reading it

 

[Nagol]

How is it that every piece of evidence given so far for the brokenness of the game is debatable?

Because for all its flaws, the game is playable as evidenced by the many tables that have played, continue to play, and will play in the future.

 

[Campbell]

How is it that every piece of evidence given so far for the brokenness of the game is debatable?

It's an issue with a lot of nuance, and message boards are not always the best place to discuss nuanced issues. We also tend to universalize our experiences when in reality every game is different. Role playing games are not games like chess or even like Magic. The shared fictional space complicates matters. Perceptions can vary wildly, and the game in question is one that is very open to interpretation.

There are also a variety of related issues that will have an impact on our perceptions of game balance including:

• How much of an impact character build and spell memorization should have
• What impact player skill should have on game play
• If certain character types should require more skilled play than others
• How we handle pacing and time
• If dramatic or causal logic takes precedence

Personally, I'm not all that interested in an argument. I get much more out of discussing the issue. It's quite possible for the same rules to work well for one particular group, and not another. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is a play style or a rules issue. Rather there is a play style / rules mismatch. This is also an issue of degrees - when I say I believe there are balance issues with 3e I'm not saying it doesn't work at all or its broken beyond belief. Even most people who make those claims are exercising hyperbole. It might serve us better in the future to not assume a game is either perfect or broken. Probably won't happen, but one can hope.

Quick Note: I like 4e quite a bit, but I realize its solutions did not work for a sizable portion of the community. When I call for a more mechanically engaging fighter or tighter balance, I'm not calling for those exact solutions. There are many ways to skin a cat. All have different trade offs.

 

[Dandu]

You are misunderstanding, Astral Projection, as a 9th level spell, cannot be used, of itself, to power a Wish spell, which is also 9th level.

A fully charged Luckblade contains three wishes. I believe that can serve as a source for Wishes.

I think that, ideally, the power for the effect in the astral plane must come from somewhere, and the logical place is that they come from the original items.

I would counter by saying that the power for the effect in the astral plane comes from the Weave instead of the original items.

I would point out that the rules could use some clarity here, but it is against the spirit of the Magic Rules for a 9th level spell to power other, multiple, 9th level spells.

I would question your understanding of the spirit of the rules unless your name is Skip Williams, SKR, or any of the actual developers, because they've all done their fair share to introduce badly thought out spells and mechanics. Offhand, Polymorph Any Object, Simulacrum, Venomfire...

Is this the strength of the evidence that the system is broken? These points are so easy to address that I find it hard to believe that they are being used as evidence for a broken system.

If you seek a comprehensive list of badly written rules, I have a link for you.

How is it that every piece of evidence given so far for the brokenness of the game is debatable?

Because you are debating it.

Seriously, you are asking that question in a world where the Holocaust is not universally accepted as having occurred.