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D&D 5E Opinion poll: Once D&D Next is out, how do you think it will do? (based on what we have so far)

How do you think D&D Next will do once it's out? (based on the knowledge we have so far)

  • D&D Next will be absolute success and regain the title of top RPG. :)

    Votes: 45 36.3%
  • D&D Next will flop and be a disappointment to players and DMs alike. :(

    Votes: 16 12.9%
  • D&D Next will be an average game that will quietly take it's place among the other RPGs. :I

    Votes: 63 50.8%

But WotC's core rulebooks for a new edition are SO frontloaded in sales and generate so much money overall (compared to the rest of the RPG line)... that it throws their yearly ledgers completely off. They THINK they have a huge game on their hands based on Year One sales (and start trying to plan their lines with that idea in mind)... but then they realize that's not necessarily the case in Year 2, Year 3, etc. etc. So if WotC generates $10 million in Year One (almost entirely from the frontloaded sales of a new set of core books)... then in Year 2 generates $5 million from their accessories and support products, then $2 million in Year 3, $1 million in Year 4... that kind of fluctuation is unwanted in a corporate environment. It's the same reason why Morrus said (back when he first offered up the ENWorld subscription service to people) that he was only doing monthly subscriptions, and not have a "pay once for the year" option. Because it's much more difficult to plan and organize your year-to-year and month-to-month finances when you don't have that kind of consistency. Heck, that's why DDI was so important to WotC too... because they always knew each month they had X number of dollars coming in.
I was actually referring to how Paizo sells more Core Rulebooks each year than they had the year before. And each new printing of the Core Rulebook is the same and incorporates errata. They continually point people to the Core Rulebook as the first book to buy.
That's what WotC should do. Instead of ignoring the existance of the PHB and published books they should continually keep them in print and on shelves, like they said they were going to do with Essentials. And all those later accessories should be subservient to the a Core Rulebook so people always need a copy.

That's WotC's big problem (and why I don't think you can compare them to Paizo.) As weird as it is to say... a new edition for them is just too popular. Too much windfall at the top and not enough in subsequent fiscal years. Heck, truth be told, I wouldn't be surprised if WotC would actually prefer (if they could get away with it) to release a new edition of D&D every year, just to get the same level of base sales year-to-year from those core books, even if overall it ends up generating less money total than a single line that suffers diminishing returns. If given the choice between:

$10 mill / $5 mill / $ 2 mill / $1 mill / $500K (Years 1 to 5 of one line - $18.5 million total)

versus

$3 mill / $3 mill / $3 mill / $3 mill / $3 mill (new line each year - $15 million total)

Most companies I think would prefer the second option.
Except that it takes money to design a new edition. You're paying staff for that time so you start with a deficit, and have to pay that off. So the longer an edition is in print, the more you pay off the book. If you sell the same number of copies of a book each year you make increasing profits.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Except that it takes money to design a new edition. You're paying staff for that time so you start with a deficit, and have to pay that off. So the longer an edition is in print, the more you pay off the book. If you sell the same number of copies of a book each year you make increasing profits.

The difference though is that because Pathfinder is not as ubiquitous as Dungeons & Dragons... they sell more core rulebooks each year because they started from such low sales to begin with. Nobody outside the RPG community knows about the game, so their PR to get their name out there is doing its job to make it more well known so that they can sell books.

But Dungeons & Dragons? As soon as the PR starts and says "New edition goes on sale July 1st!"... everybody within the community and even large swathes of people outside the community know about it. Which is why they sell so many of the core game off the top in that first year, and why each year drops off from that point. I mean... the 4th edition of D&D was mentioned on The Colbert Report as getting released, which is an indication of just how much the game's name is out there, and how much press it can get in mainstream media. And that kind of blanketing of the landscape is what causes the avalanche of sales for D&D in Year One, but also thereby assuring them that they aren't going to be able to sustain that level in Year Two, despite perhaps their wish to do so. Everyone's buying the game right off the bat.

Pathfinder is a small, indy film that has built up their word-of-mouth, adding additional screens each and every week until it finally reaches quite substantial profits after several months of release. D&D is the Hollywood blockbuster that is going to get a huge opening weekend, but see its money drop by 60% in week two. That's just the way these two games are, and there's not much either company can do about it.
 

MJS

First Post
@Morrus;
Actually, it's not that I don't believe the audience split has happened... it's that I don't believe it's had any major impact on the sales of those first set of books. For every player who refuses to buy the books of a new edition, there's a new player that comes in and replaces him. And thus... the sales of new edition core books always seem to greatly outpace what would have been the sales of a third or fourth generation splatbook from the previous edition they would have been selling instead.
Ah, I see. It's impossible to really know without the numbers. I think overall, we know it to be a decline from 1E to now. Support of all the games looks to be a hopeful future however -
 

The difference though is that because Pathfinder is not as ubiquitous as Dungeons & Dragons... they sell more core rulebooks each year because they started from such low sales to begin with. Nobody outside the RPG community knows about the game, so their PR to get their name out there is doing its job to make it more well known so that they can sell books.
This is very true. At least for the first couple years of Pathfinder when it was a practically unknown game and then it tied with D&D and everyone moved over.
But the following two years are different. Some of that was is word of mouth. Other sales are people swapping from 3e and 4e. Plus repeat sales as people buy replacement copies or opt for a newer printing with errata.
But some are new players. There is a whole generation of people being introduced to gaming via Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society.

Much of that is Paizo’s focus on the Core Rulebook. The Beginner Box is a soft introduction that then pushes new people to the Core Rulebook. They opted not to redesign the Core Rulebook when they realized more people were coming to Pathfinder than just a few holdouts.

WotC can’t expect the same growth as the first couple years of PF, but they can try for the sustained sales. Yes, D&D is a little more well known so there will be a spike followed by a drop in sales. But the trick is to not have sales bottom out but to have a steady stream of lesser sales generating regular profit.
This can be encouraged. They can work to emphasise the PHB. Such as not releasing a PHB2 that allows you all but ignore the PHB1. Not devaluing the physical books with endless errata (or releasing updated printings with corrections included). Not having a secondary line for new players that also spreads core book sales across three products. And instead of just having Encounter seasons only focus on the new, also push the PHB and core products.

But Dungeons & Dragons? As soon as the PR starts and says "New edition goes on sale July 1st!"... everybody within the community and even large swathes of people outside the community know about it. Which is why they sell so many of the core game off the top in that first year, and why each year drops off from that point. I mean... the 4th edition of D&D was mentioned on The Colbert Report as getting released, which is an indication of just how much the game's name is out there, and how much press it can get in mainstream media. And that kind of blanketing of the landscape is what causes the avalanche of sales for D&D in Year One, but also thereby assuring them that they aren't going to be able to sustain that level in Year Two, despite perhaps their wish to do so. Everyone's buying the game right off the bat.
This was true back in 2008. When D&D was king of the world and the d20 system dominated the gaming landscape. The 4e PHB and core books sold amazingly well based on pre-orders and people buying the books sight unseen.
Now… people might be significantly more wary. The Year One spike will be much less as more people adopt a “wait and see” approach, deciding to buy based on feedback, reviews, and follow-up releases. I pre-ordered the 4e books and damned if I'm going to repeat that mistake with Next. Fool me once...

Again, WotC can plan for this. They should be aware of the potential for sustained sales of the PHB and release a smaller initial print run but be ready for secondary printings with minor corrections.

Pathfinder is a small, indy film that has built up their word-of-mouth, adding additional screens each and every week until it finally reaches quite substantial profits after several months of release. D&D is the Hollywood blockbuster that is going to get a huge opening weekend, but see its money drop by 60% in week two. That's just the way these two games are, and there's not much either company can do about it.
D&D might be the blockbuster, but it’s the franchise rebooting blockbuster.
Think Batman Begins where the movie did okay in theaters as people were not rushing to see it following Batman & Robin. But then it did excellent in DVD and everyone and their mother went to see The Dark Knight.
The first year of D&D Next is the reboot. The second year is the sequel. If they knock the core books out of the park, word of mouth and sales will rise. Continue to support new playstyles and options with accessories to the PHB and you’ll attract more and more players to D&D or back to D&D. That can lead to sustained sales.
 

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
I just want to say that Paizo's checkout option on their website kept crashing because of the heavy influx of people buying material from the "Great Golem Sale".

One of the differences between Paizo and WoTc is that Paizo will stick to the game. Instead of trying to come up with a new edition to try and scramble for players, they just stick with what they have and the fanbase they have. If new people come on board great, if not then they have plenty of loyal customers to sell to.

WoTc actually tries too hard.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
One of the differences between Paizo and WoTc is that Paizo will stick to the game. Instead of trying to come up with a new edition to try and scramble for players, they just stick with what they have and the fanbase they have.

Ermm. You know that can't last forever, right? That the market for Bestiary #42: Flumphs & Their Friends will be minimal at best? Paizo are great, but if you're expecting them to be perpetually immune to the need for a new edition, you're going to be soul-crushingly disappointed one day.
 

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
I would say that WoTc really needs to adopt a new strategy and not rely on the name alone. I hope they don't have the mentality that Pathfinder, OSRIC, etc, are just waiting for Next to come out so they can run from their prospective games when it's released. I hope they realize Paizo is a real competitor.
 

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
Ermm. You know that can't last forever, right? That the market for Bestiary #42: Flumphs & Their Friends will be minimal at best? Paizo are great, but if you're expecting them to be perpetually immune to the need for a new edition, you're going to be soul-crushingly disappointed one day.

Who says they have to keep filling it in with rules? Golarion is a very large and rich world that they can print material for. I know it can't last forever, but not every it of the mentality where they need new and shiny every few years.

The people that play Pathfinder want more material for the game.
 

landovers

First Post
Ermm. You know that can't last forever, right? That the market for Bestiary #42: Flumphs & Their Friends will be minimal at best? Paizo are great, but if you're expecting them to be perpetually immune to the need for a new edition, you're going to be soul-crushingly disappointed one day.

Yeah, people need to stop being so averse to the idea of new editions. I for one look forward to see how Paizo will tackle the issue when the time comes, and I hope they can really improve on Pathfinder and push the hobby forward. WotC's sin has been bad edition support, bad marketing decisions (particularly introducing D&D 3.5 and Essentials) and way too short edition life span, the new editions themselves are not the root of all evil.
 

landovers

First Post
The people that play Pathfinder want more material for the game.

But Paizo cannot keep releasing the same books again and again. He meant books will be getting more and more specific. Maybe players like to know there is a source book carefully detailing a small and far away area of Golarion, but not as many people will buy that book, most people buy a few books they feel are the most important. Then Paizo will be making less money from what they publish, and as understanding and nice to the hobby and the gamers as they are (no sarcasm here), things will have to change.
 

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