D&D 5E What size (thickness) book are you hoping the PHB, DMG, and MM will be and how much fluff do you expect?

[MerricB]

My favourite size rulebooks are the AD&D books, and even its DMG could have a few pages trimmed. I'd like an order for those size books, please!

Cheers!

 

[CAFRedblade]

Keeping in mind that the Pathfinder Core book is basically the updated 3.5 PHB and DMG packed into one book.. The Pathfinder DMG is pretty much an entirely new book.

I'd be fine with a main Core Book that includes the normal PHB, DMG and a Basic MM (maybe 20-30 pages of monsters) all in one, and then a larger MM with new/additional Monsters.

But I'm also good with three separate books, as it's been pretty much the standard for DND.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Is it a barrier, yes. But it is not *equally* so. DMs traditionally know, understand, and are not flustered by the idea of having to lay out more cash than other players.

I worry about this, because it isn't really true of those new to the hobby. If you take someone who wants to get into roleplaying games, who finally got some friends to try it with him, and he's asking what game they should play, then D&D becomes a terrible gateway into the hobby. Savage Worlds, Fate Core, and Dungeon World (as a few examples) are all really good games, and ones suitable to newbies. They're all contained in a single book, each of which would sell for about the same as a single D&D hardcover or less, with PDFs as options. Add onto this the fact that Savage Worlds has a 16 page free intro product, Fate Core is pay what you want for the PDF (free preview), and Dungeon World is Creative Commons with a webpage with enough rules to play the game also for free. So, someone new picking up D&D has to trust that the the game is worth buying 3 books for ~$90 total, sight unseen, over these products that can be trialed.

Add to that the fact that if the D&D books are the 320 pages some people are suggesting, you're asking someone to read at least 640 pages + monsters to play the game just to get started. That's daunting. A lot of roleplaying curious people aren't sure what its all about and are unsure about playing. Many of these people who I interact with online don't have a regular group nearby that they can try and get their feet wet with or are intimidated by the thought of joining an existing group or just want to play with their friends. I think there are a lot of people out there who want to try it out because they've read about it or heard about it online, but aren't really sure how to get started. For these people, a single product for $0-$25 with all rules in a self contained book is vastly superior to a 3 books set for ~$90.

I think a free intro product in PDF format would go a very long way to alleviating some of these concerns. However, there's still the problem that if they like the intro product, now they have a much higher investment to make for D&D than other RPGs which are just as good. I simply don't know how that can be justified.

 

[Libramarian]

Given that one of the goals of D&D Next is to make this edition FEEL like the other editions and make people who might have exited from the game at any point in history feels welcome to come back, I just don't see them deviating from the trinity. Its worked in every edition so far and to do something different in this edition is to make it feel disconnected from every other edition.

As @ delericho mentioned, there are several editions where a different core product scheme has been used, including the two most recent (essentials and Pathfinder). They're definitely going to consider it.

I think buying a box set would feel more traditional than say, buying three books in pdf form. The difference between a physical and digital product is more important than the way the material is organized.

I'm concerned about the confusion and hesitation created in new players by offering an "intro game" that may or may not be gimped and may or may not be necessary. New players never just grab the intro product. They have to think about whether they should skip it or not. WotC shouldn't split the intro product from the core game unless they really, really have to.

Requiring the DM to have three books is equally a barrier to entry. The approach I've put forward only requires one book from anyone. As I said, the PHB is a supplement.

It seems to me that it might even increase sales of a PHB if the DM isn't required to buy it, because in groups where the DM doesn't buy it, you might average more than one player buying it who would otherwise have just borrowed the DM's copy.

The problem with that is that you then have two entry points, confusing new customers. When someone walks into an FLGS and asks "what do I need to play", it shouldn't be an invitation for the staff present to start debating whether they want the "Starter Set", the "Player's Handbook", "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" vs "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms", or whatever else. It actually matters much less what the answer is, than that there is one clear answer.

Agreed, this is a huge problem. The product line for 4e was such a CF.

Hell no.

This rubs me the wrong way so hard that it's tearing off my skin. I have nothing against electronic options, but D&D should absolutely, 100% be playable at a table with no devices at all.

Books, my friend.

The edition of D&D that leaves the printed word behind is the edition that leaves me behind.

See! Digital vs. print is more important than trinity vs. all-in-one. You snipped the part there where I said they should still offer everything in book form, just not presented as the default.

I think they're considering not doing any sort of DMG product. Mearls said in one of his articles that he'd like to put DM advice in online articles (videos?) instead. I think a lot of new groups try to play without the DMG these days.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

As @ delericho mentioned, there are several editions where a different core product scheme has been used, including the two most recent (essentials and Pathfinder). They're definitely going to consider it.

They'll consider every option, I doubt anything is completely off the table. However, I think they'll decide on the 3 book because that's what people are used to. It means that players have an easy entry with a PHB that doesn't cost too much. If they add all the rules on how to create encounters, how much XP to give out, magic items, traps, and dungeon/adventure creation advice into the PHB it will be enough pages that it'll increase the cost(even more if they add monsters as well). If they separate it out, they can leave only the rules that players actually NEED in there making the book cheaper. It also doesn't make people feel like they have to buy an extra book. If they release a starter box and still have a PHB, that means no one will buy the starter box because it isn't the whole game.

Also, neither Pathfinder nor Essentials were editions of D&D. Pathfinder is made by an entirely different company. Essentials books were expansion books to 4e, not a new edition. They were designed as a possible alternate entry point, but not a new edition. They experimented with them, however as I said in my earlier post, they DID follow the Trinity. They just printed 2 PHBs with only half the classes in each.

 

[Cyberen]

I wouldn't consider not offering a DMG book, as the 1e DMG is my best RPG investment ever.
I really don't get why a cheap (as in : low price), well made Starter Set should get in the way of a more complete line. B/X, or B+E(+C ?) felt like a complete game to me, and served as a gateway towards AD&D (or not !) for many people here. I don't really see why it should be different today. The playtest format, in a basic and edited version, of course, feels like a good starting point to me, at around 128 pages.
Then give me a thousand pages or more of extra rules, crazy subsystems, goofy monsters, and extensive designers notes !

 

[jodyjohnson]

I'd like to see the entry point as:

Player box/pack
128pp Player Book
64pp Spells Book

DM box/pack
64pp DM Book
128pp Bestiary
32pp Adventure

Followed up by the Advanced Player's book, the Spell Compendium, Advanced DM book (Unearthed arcana, options, basic playstyle tweating), Advanced Monster Manual as the 220pp+ books.

 

[Farscape]

I'm concerned about the confusion and hesitation created in new players by offering an "intro game" that may or may not be gimped and may or may not be necessary. New players never just grab the intro product. They have to think about whether they should skip it or not. WotC shouldn't split the intro product from the core game unless they really, really have to.
It seems to me that it might even increase sales of a PHB if the DM isn't required to buy it, because in groups where the DM doesn't buy it, you might average more than one player buying it who would otherwise have just borrowed the DM's copy.
Agreed, this is a huge problem. The product line for 4e was such a CF.

I would like to focus on this part. Intro products of anything nowadays are not something that sell well. I remember when I used to buy PC game demos to try out the game first to make sure I liked it, but I don't do that anymore. I don't even think gaming companies put out demos anymore.

I honestly don't think a beginner boxset is necessary. I believe a simple format of the PHB would allow you to do this. All you would need is an intro at the beginning of the book that goes into detail what you need to play a quick game to allow people to try it out before advancing on to the next level.

Edit: I've found that the boxsets are a bit of a waste because once they're used that just become shelf decoration.

 

[Brock Landers]

I definitely want the holy triumvirate, and I think around the 1st Ed size would be good.

 

[fjw70]

I want a Basic (not intro) boxed set that covers 10 levels and includes
--Player's book (basic 4 races and classes with simple builds, no feats or skills)
--DM book
--Monster book
--Dice
--Several adventures

Then I want the following advanced products
--Advanced Players book with a bunch of races, classes, feats, skills, etc.
--Advanced DM book with a lot more modules, such as the downtime module
--Advanced Monster book

The basic rules would be repeated in the advanced books so you could go straight Advanced if you wanted.