D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[Ahnehnois]

But if you wanted to adapt the LotR into an RPG, the most natural way would be to give Frodo's player lots of meta-abilities to simulate the "protagonist luck" that Frodo enjoys in the story.
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My sense is that 3E doesn't have so many meta-options, but maybe that means it's harder to do LotR in that system.

Ironically, this example would be much better suited to an approach that simply makes him a PC with minimal abilities, and to have the DM contrive events external to him that allow his survival. It would be much more appropriate to the thematic content of those fictional works, which emphasize that unknown greater external forces are in control.

LotR is about many things, but it is certainly not about Frodo making informed or efficacious decisions or being a "protagonist" in the sense you describe. Roleplaying that character would be best achieved by creating mechanics that make him clearly impotent and conveying a sense of helplessness on the player when confronted with obviously superior challenges.

In 4e, for instance, he would be a lazy warlord whose presence inspires Aragorn, Boromir etc onto greater combat heights, and whose hit points are interpreted in an almost completely meta-fashion.

As far as I can tell, they become much more competent and less cantankerous without him (probably, if not entirely, because of the ring's influence).

Of course there's nothing to stop you running a 3E game with a 5th level human paladin/ranger, a 5th level dwarf axe fighter, a 5th level elf archer and a bunch of 1st level halfing commoners (plus an aristocrat for Frodo). But I wouldn't expect that party to play much like LotR - eg the 1st level halflings will almost certainly not survive the fight in Moria. In fact Frodo would have virtually no chance of surviving the stabbing on Weathertop, without his player having any meta-resources to deploy.

All one needs to do, however, is change the health system. One of the benefits of the vp/wp approach is it makes those low-level characters less vulnerable to being instantly killed. Add that to the equation and it runs fairly well.

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Then again, Tolkien is also the prime example of focusing on setting rather than plot or character and spends hundreds of pages running on about places and things that have nothing to do with the protagonists ("hidden backstory" in your lexicon) and is frankly the antithesis of most of what you think about rpgs. I assume you must have the same aversion for his work that you do for the gaming style that derives from it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Actually thats what you and Mistwell are saying the whole time, that every character must be good in combat, because thats the only important part of D&D, which automatically excludes characters like Frodo.

No, this is completely and utterly wrong. A swashbuckler is, if you want the iconic image, someone using light armor, a finesse weapon like a rapier and having a more carefree attitude. It is in no way tied to how many D6 you roll for damage.

Um that's news to me... But please show me where frodo sneak attacks or evades or uses unccanny dodge


If I WANt to make frodo I should be able to if I WANt to make zorro I should be able to

What I fight against is the player siting to make zorro and getting frodo

 

[Derren]

If I WANt to make frodo I should be able to if I WANt to make zorro I should be able to

What I fight against is the player siting to make zorro and getting frodo

So you actually want a unbalanced game? Then why are you arguing for balance?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So you actually want a unbalanced game? Then why are you arguing for balance?

My fight (and it sucks cause it feels like no one wants to do it) is to make it balanced
With options clearly spelled out to unbalance if your group wants

 

[billd91]

But if you wanted to adapt the LotR into an RPG, the most natural way would be to give Frodo's player lots of meta-abilities to simulate the "protagonist luck" that Frodo enjoys in the story.

Given the way D&D has always been designed, particularly since the CR system debuted, the PCs have always been the favored team. So a lot of meta-abilities have never really been necessary. 1e gave them some pretty good saving throws to make sure halflings were resilient and I believe Middle Earth Role Playing from ICE went a similar route - excellent defenses. Combined with the stealthiness halflings have gotten since at least 1e, I don't think Frodo and Sam really need much more.

 

[Derren]

My fight (and it sucks cause it feels like no one wants to do it) is to make it balanced
With options clearly spelled out to unbalance if your group wants

Ah, so you see non combat as just an optional addon for "those people" who for some reason don't want to play a normal character.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am curious, what class would any of you put Frodo into?

He is hard...

Merry and pippin are fighters and Sam a ranger... But no class fits frodo

 

[Derren]

He is hard...

Merry and pippin are fighters and Sam a ranger... But no class fits frodo

Actually in 3E its very easy. Commoner, or expert when you are generous. And the others being fighters is rather questionable.
In 4E though which seems to be closer to what you aspire D&D should be, yes its hard, if not impossible to squeeze Frodo into it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ah, so you see non combat as just an optional addon for "those people" who for some reason don't want to play a normal character.

Um... What?? Where would you get that... I want More non combat... It seems you aren't really talking to me any more...

My ideal game everyone by default would have specialties in combat and exploration and social
My rogue is Don Juan and my fighter is captain America and my wizard is Harry Dresden

4e got into a good start but really needs some work

3.5 was too much caster dominance both in and out of combat

At no time did I say I wanted only combat infact multi times I have said I want real balance not just combat

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Actually in 3E its very easy. Commoner, or expert when you are generous. And the others being fighters is rather questionable.
In 4E though which seems to be closer to what you aspire D&D should be, yes its hard, if not impossible to squeeze Frodo into it.

Also level discrepancy the hobbits are level 1 Aragon is 6th the others are level 3-5