D&D 5E D&D Next Q&A: 01/24/2014

[Li Shenron]

I don't buy the idea that some classes must get their path at level 1, but not others. They mention things like a cleric's armor proficiencies as a reason why they have to get their domain at 1st level, but why wouldn't that also be the case for subclasses of other classes that might have different proficiencies than others of their class?

You are absolutely right.

Other classes already get additional proficiencies from subclass at 3rd level.

 

[Li Shenron]

1) I guess I see where he's coming from. However, at an actual table, it does seem kinda lame to be playing a class that doesn't have 'cool stuff' yet while somebody else is already getting it. Overall, I think I support his point of view, but it does seem to go against what I've come to expect from 5E.


2) So different classes will have different break points... I understand why, but I find myself curious how this will interact with multiclassing.

These are very good points, very "practical" questions!

Truth is, narrative goes a long way, we can come up with nice narrative explanations for both domains at 1st or 3rd level, but why not 5th, 10th or 20th? I am sure we can find narrative excuses for each.

But the "feel" of the game is important, and they should not underestimate that subclass is a very important choice for a lot of players, much more important than feats or proficiencies, and even more important than race (at least because race has a smaller impact on your abilities on the long term). Not all players will be bothered by subclasses occurring earlier or later for different classes, but part of the gamebase will, and this delivers a sense of unfairness, which is detrimental to the game "feel".

My opinion is still that they got stuck with a certain mechanical implementation of domains, and now they need too much work to find another (the game doesn't really need domains to grant bonus spells, that's just the idea of previous editions, but domains could have been used to grant anything).

Plus, they probably thought that 3rd level is when spellcasters get 2nd-level spells, thus having both this and subclass might be too much of a boost: this is why IMHO they anticipated subclass to 2nd level for Wizards, Druids and Rangers.

 

[steeldragons]

Easy peasy. Make the cleric spells lists "generic" for the first and second level spells, a la B/X: Bless, Resist Cold/Fire, Cure Light Wounds, Light, etc. etc. Generic stuff any/all clerics can do.

Domain comes in/is chosen at 3rd when you're really getting into your religion/deity's specific areas of influence.

Annnnd <ducks behind some cover> no Channeling Divinity until 3rd level either.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If it wasn't for the fact that they said there was a demarcation at 3rd level as the time when PCs change from "beginning adventurers" to true adventurers... would anyone really care at what level the classes got domains or sub-class abilities or whatever? We just went through an entire edition of people all upset because the classes were "the same" because they got all their abiilities in the same exact pattern... and now people wish for a pattern again.

If having any patterns at all matter that much... at this point the easiest thing to do is to use 1st level for all spellcasting primary classes (cleric, druid, wizard, warlock, sorcerer), and 3rd level for all weapon-using (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk) and spellcasting secondary classes (like the paladin, ranger, and bard). You then still have a "pattern" per se... it's just not one that needs to run across the entire game.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

I never look over at the person sitting next to me with envy because his totally different class than mine received some cool ability at a specific level. I'm not worried about what the other person gets, if I was then I would be playing that class instead of a different one. If it makes sense for my class to obtain a certain ability at such and such level then I find that more appealing.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I never look over at the person sitting next to me with envy because his totally different class than mine received some cool ability at a specific level. I'm not worried about what the other person gets, if I was then I would be playing that class instead of a different one. If it makes sense for my class to obtain a certain ability at such and such level then I find that more appealing.

yea, but other people HAVE LOOKED OVER AND SAID "WAIT WHY DOES HE GET THAT?"

Just because your pinto didn't explode when you got in a car accident doesn't mean people can't complain they want the gas tank flaw fixed.

In what other circumstance is it OK to say "X problem that you and other people had never happened to me, so it isn't a problem?"

"Well I didn't loose my job so it wasn't a resection"
"Well I didn't loose my 401k so Enron didn't do anything wrong"
"Well I'm not starving so why do we need food stamps"
"I've never been robbed so why do we need police"
"My cable doesn't go out like my sister's does, so I don't think they should fix the lines...after all it doesn't effect me"

 

[DEFCON 1]

yea, but other people HAVE LOOKED OVER AND SAID "WAIT WHY DOES HE GET THAT?"

Just because your pinto didn't explode when you got in a car accident doesn't mean people can't complain they want the gas tank flaw fixed.

In what other circumstance is it OK to say "X problem that you and other people had never happened to me, so it isn't a problem?"

"Well I didn't loose my job so it wasn't a resection"
"Well I didn't loose my 401k so Enron didn't do anything wrong"
"Well I'm not starving so why do we need food stamps"
"I've never been robbed so why do we need police"
"My cable doesn't go out like my sister's does, so I don't think they should fix the lines...after all it doesn't effect me"

Not a true comparison.

If the situation was one class got nothing until third level and another class got a bunch... then yeah, it could be a genuine concern. But that's not what we have here. Every class gets a whole heap of abilities at 1st level. They are all relatively balanced with each other. There's no obvious differential between them where a person should be bemoaning their choice of class because they're underpowered.. The only difference is that there are sets of extra abilities for each class that have been put in a box that says "sub-class" on the top to make them look pretty... but even adding them into each class does not change the amount or power of them. If you were to unwrap all those abilities from the "sub-class" box and just assign them to each class like normal class abilities... no one would notice any real difference.

It's only because of when those handful of wrapped abilities are given to someone that makes them think they're getting shafted. But its hard to feel sympathy when someone is opening a pile of presents in front of them but they're mad because the person across the table got handed their stocking rather than another box. You just have to tell them "Your stocking is coming, don't worry... just open that big present in front of you first."

 

[SkidAce]

Easy peasy. Make the cleric spells lists "generic" for the first and second level spells, a la B/X: Bless, Resist Cold/Fire, Cure Light Wounds, Light, etc. etc. Generic stuff any/all clerics can do.

Domain comes in/is chosen at 3rd when you're really getting into your religion/deity's specific areas of influence.

Annnnd <ducks behind some cover> no Channeling Divinity until 3rd level either.

I'm with it...good ideas.

...must spread around etc etc...

 

[the Jester]

Not seeing a thread, so I'm posting it: link

I'd like all characters to choose their path at 3rd level. I believe a cleric, warlock or sorcerer in the levels 1-2 represents an individual of true faith/exceptional arcane talent searching for his place in the world. At 3rd level a cleric joins the ranks of his religious tradition, a warlock makes his pact and a sorcerer discovers his bloodline. As always, people who don't want to role-play this can always start at 3rd level.

Cheers,

What about those of us who want neither a godless cleric nor a pactless warlock, nor to skip 1st level?

No thanks.

And who exactly is granting those guys their spells? Without a god, a cleric is not empowered. Without a pact, a warlock has no patron. Honestly, I think this is a terrible idea.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't find the idea of a cleric in search of a god or a warlock in search of a pact to be viable UNIVERSAL archetypes. As a one-off or an exception, I could see it, but I think it makes ZERO sense as a default.

This. Yes, as a one-off, the ideas are fine, but not for the default. Especially since that would force a certain metaphysical outlook on the campaign, e.g. that clerics really don't need a god to cast spells.

 

[Rhenny]

to me, the problem isn't at what level a player has to commit to a choice like domain. I like the idea that different pcs have different feel at different levels. The problem is when the choice commitment tips balance of power. So far, it doesn't seem that the early domain choice or the school specialization at 2nd level tips the balance of power; therefore I like the variety it adds.