D&D 5E Non choices: must have and wants why someone that hates something must take it

[Kobold Stew]

Swashbucklers did not use rapiers. They used short swords or daggers. They also have to be relatively strong in order to do the things that sailors do or they are going to suck at skill checks related to sailing. So we will give them a 16/16 split between Dex and Str: <snip>

A background might give them the skills they need, but a swashbuckler isn't just a sailor. He's a master sailor that spends most of his life on the waters. Looks like they got rid of the feat that gave you mastery over a skill or skills. The closest would we Lucky used solely for skill checks that a sailor might face.

Ah. so it's not just the idea of a swashbuckler you want to create, it's a particular stat balance. What if I roll my stats and don't get your 16s? Ugh. You are no longer building an archetype, but you are building a specific character with specific stats and specific weapons, with no opportunity for imagination.

And you are surprised that the specific character that you build is weaker than the other specific character that you build to be better? Double ugh.

You also require a master sailor spending his life on the waters… what level are we now playing? The waves are rolling over the deck of your argument.

Let's see if you can tilt the balance artificially in your favour further...

Sorry no. They used extremely short weapons because they usually fought in cramped spaces and needed to sheath and unsheath their weapon rapidly. They also needed a light weapon in order to swim with it in their teeth, usually a dagger. A short sword or a dagger are more likely.
<snip>
Go watch some Errol Flynn movies. He protects his allies all the time, and he's the definition of a swashbuckler.

I think actually you should go watch some Errol Flynn. -- find me the one where he's using a short sword?

(I see Mistwell has given you all sorts of rapier pictures.)

In any case -- I'm more excited about my all-fighter Errol-Flynn-esque swashbuckler now than ever. It fits the archetype perfectly.

 

[Lokiare]

I've been to auctions where they auction Flynn's rapiers. I've met a trainer who trained with some of Flynn's trainers (he still trains rapier to this day, for studios sometimes). I bought a prop once, but that was from Ben Hur, not a Flynn movie. But hey, that prop was a short sword!

Flynn sometimes used short swords, and sometimes used rapiers, and your assessment that swashbucklers didn't use rapiers is incorrect. Rapiers are definitely part of the trope.

So is sneak attack, for that matter.

So is movement akin to cunning action.

this article says different http://www.strongblade.com/history/rapiers.html it turns out what many people are calling rapiers are actually small swords. In fact some of the 'rapiers' that Flynn uses are actually defined as small swords. Rapiers are extremely long and heavy swords (which is why the 1d8 actually fits for damage), the shorter swords that look similar to rapiers are actually small swords (also known as duel swords).

Swashbucklers did not sneak around and back stab. In fact according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashbuckler they had a code of honor.

 

[Lokiare]

Ah. so it's not just the idea of a swashbuckler you want to create, it's a particular stat balance. What if I roll my stats and don't get your 16s? Ugh. You are no longer building an archetype, but you are building a specific character with specific stats and specific weapons, with no opportunity for imagination.

And you are surprised that the specific character that you build is weaker than the other specific character that you build to be better? Double ugh.

You also require a master sailor spending his life on the waters… what level are we now playing? The waves are rolling over the deck of your argument.

Let's see if you can tilt the balance artificially in your favour further...



I think actually you should go watch some Errol Flynn. -- find me the one where he's using a short sword?

(I see Mistwell has given you all sorts of rapier pictures.)

In any case -- I'm more excited about my all-fighter Errol-Flynn-esque swashbuckler now than ever. It fits the archetype perfectly.

Ugh, I was talking about a 'character concept' which is a specific concept for a specific character. Not all swashbucklers were sailors for instance. I was using point buy, but if you roll worse, it just makes the problem worse. You have to put your two best scores in Str and Dex for the character concept to work as a swashbuckler. For the sword and board fighter, all you have to have is a half way decent Str score.

We are playing with any level character, but my numbers show a level 1 character who has the so far non-existent 'sailor' background which means he was raised to sail a ship or worked on ships all his life before he started adventuring.

As I showed before Errol Flynn used what is known as a 'small sword' or 'duel sword' which falls much better into the short sword category than the rapier category.

 

[Mistwell]

Here is Flynn using that rapier and dagger combo mentioned earlier. It's a great shot (might be Adventurers of Don Juan):

Unfortunately in Adventures of Captain Fabian he uses a pistol.

Hmm. I seem to have exhausted the ship-based Flynn movies I can recall. So here is Mark of Zorro:

Another rapier.

 

[Mistwell]

this article says different http://www.strongblade.com/history/rapiers.html it turns out what many people are calling rapiers are actually small swords. In fact some of the 'rapiers' that Flynn uses are actually defined as small swords. Rapiers are extremely long and heavy swords (which is why the 1d8 actually fits for damage), the shorter swords that look similar to rapiers are actually small swords (also known as duel swords).

A small sword is a form of a rapier. Despite the name they are not short swords. Note the "typical" small sword in the article

it's nothing close to a short sword. The small sword, in D&D, is represented by the Rapier.

Swashbucklers did not sneak around and back stab. In fact according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashbuckler they had a code of honor.

You said watch Flynn movies for your example, and Flynn sneaks up on people all the time. With his rapier.

As for your last link, they mention, "Late films such as The Princess Bride, Pirates of the Caribbean and The Mask of Zorro". Hey, in all of those, they use a rapier! And...at least in two of those three they sneak up on people all the time

I think the point's been made. A rogue, with a rapier and a high dex, and the sailor background, is a great start to your image of a swashbuckler. Now technicality, a swashbuckler should be using a buckler. But they never did in the movies.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Ugh, I was talking about a 'character concept' which is a specific concept for a specific character. Not all swashbucklers were sailors for instance. I was using point buy, but if you roll worse, it just makes the problem worse. You have to put your two best scores in Str and Dex for the character concept to work as a swashbuckler. For the sword and board fighter, all you have to have is a half way decent Str score.

As I've said, you only need to pump dex for this build -- an average strength will do, despite your protestations.

We are playing with any level character, but my numbers show a level 1 character who has the so far non-existent 'sailor' background which means he was raised to sail a ship or worked on ships all his life before he started adventuring.

Why is the sailor background non-existent? I see it on p. 4 of the backgrounds document. So, the only problem is that you don't like it? Your numbers are irrelevant to concept.

As I showed before Errol Flynn used what is known as a 'small sword' or 'duel sword' which falls much better into the short sword category than the rapier category.

I disagree (and remain unconvinced by your evidence), but that's irrelevant. The rapier can also accommodate the "small sword" or "duel sword" without difficulty. I would argue that's more natural, since in the game "short sword" already has a lot of work to do, covering everything from a gladius to a wakizashi.

 

[Mistwell]

Why is the sailor background non-existent? I see it on p. 4 of the backgrounds document. So, the only problem is that you don't like it? Your numbers are irrelevant to concept.

He hasn't read the two most recent playtest rules, so maybe it wasn't there in prior versions?

 

[Lokiare]

A small sword is a form of a rapier. Despite the name they are not short swords. Note the "typical" small sword in that article, and you will see it's nothing close to a short sword. The small sword, in D&D, is represented by the Rapier.



You said watch Flynn movies for your example, and Flynn sneaks up on people all the time. With his rapier.

As for your last link, they mention, "Late films such as The Princess Bride, Pirates of the Caribbean and The Mask of Zorro". Hey, in all of those, they use a rapier! And...at least in two of those three they sneak up on people all the time

Small Swords are shorter and deal much less damage than a rapier. This article has multiple pictures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_sword they are clearly different types of weapons.

For comparison look at all the swords here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_swords that are described as short sword. You'll find they look almost identical in some cases and are the generally the same length.

The Rapier in D&D (due to its 1d8 damage) is the longer older rapier akin to the longsword, thus the same damage.

Where does Flynn sneak up on people in his movies? Where does he do that and then stab them without giving them a chance to defend themselves? Show me some clips please.

There is a difference between being able to sneak around and back stabbing things.

 

[Lokiare]

He hasn't read the two most recent playtest rules, so maybe it wasn't there in prior versions?

I'm working out of the 101413 document now, and it does not have anything in it about a sailor background.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I'm working out of the 101413 document now, and it does not have anything in it about a sailor background.

Page 4, column 1. Roll a 12 under "commoner".

(or simply search the document for the word "sailor").