D&D 5E What belongs in a $50 PHB?

[delericho]

Can anyone confirm that the 1e AD&D Player's Handbook in 1978 was $15 cover price? If so, that's $54 in today's dollars.

The 1st Ed DMG, in 1978, was $15 (Dragon #33, Sage Advice). I haven't been able to track down figures for the PHB or MM, though they may be buried in the Dragons of that era somewhere.

(Of course, the 1st Ed books were staggered a year apart, so the PHB was 1977 and the MM 1976.)

 

[Hussar]

Ideally, a $50 PHB would be the complete game - player's material, DM's material, bestiary. Everything else should be strictly optional.

Failing that, if the PHB is only going to be player-side materials (and one of 2 or 3 core books), then it should be very comprehensive in its contents - I expect to be able to play a wide range of characters (races, classes, etc) with good variation of each, right across the level range, without feeling the need for supplements because of the gaps that weren't covered.

One other thing, that I think should go without saying: I expect such a book to retain its value. I understand why it was done, but the 4e/DDI approach of ongoing errata/revisions is unacceptable. If the book is in need of so much change, then it really shouldn't be being published, never mind priced at $50.

Why does 4e get held up as the poster child here? I mean 3e was so flawed it got an entire rewrite within 2 years. The 3.5 phb has an errata document at least as long as 4e's an Pathfinder, despite being the third iteration of the same rule set has a fairly lengthy errata document.

 

[delericho]

Why does 4e get held up as the poster child here?

Mostly because it's the most recent edition.

However, with 4e the existence of the DDI made is easy for WotC to patch the game as they went. This meant that, for a while there at least, there were a batch of new revisions every two weeks. This was particularly painful (to me) because it happened to coincide with the time when I was regularly playing 4e, with one session every two weeks. Because my DM chose to remain current, this meant that my character's powers were seeing at least some revision every time I played him.

The other thing that I felt WotC got wrong, starting with the polymorph changes in 3e and continuing for several years in 4e (probably ending when Andy Collins left) was that much of what they did went beyond errata (that is, fixing mistakes) and was instead a matter of revision - things that were perfectly good were replaced with other things (most of which, to be sure, were also perfectly good).

(Indeed, at times it felt like they were treating it like software and issuing patches. But whereas I can patch software on my PC fairly easily, it's not so easy to do the same to a physical book.)

But... look, honestly, I'm not trying to pick on 4e here. The problems with 3e are well documented, and I'll be the first to admit them. (Indeed, it is my contention that pretty much all of 3e above level 10ish, the multiclassing rules, pretty much all of item creation and purchase, and the whole monster-as-PC thing just don't work.) So, by all means, when I say this was a problem with 4e, feel free to insert "3e" instead.

If 5e is moving to a $50 PHB, then that's a fairly hefty above-inflation increase (over 3e, 3.5e, and 4e). For that, I expect a premium product, and one that will retain its value. Obviously, I'm not demanding perfection, since that's impossible (not to mention unreasonable). But it does mean that the list of errata should be small (but comprehensive - no cheating by just ignoring mistakes!), and it also means that they should not revise material post-publication unless it absolutely must be revised.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I can get Savage Worlds, a complete game, for $10. FATE costs $25, including the PDF. $50 rulebooks aren't a value to me, they're a rip-off.

For $50, I expect something akin to the BECM D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If it's going to be a PHB, DMG & MM trilogy, I'm not buying at over $20 a book - essentially $60 for the set.

I love Savage Worlds, but the $9.99 Explorer's Edition is a flimsy digest book published abroad. They make small margins on it (note all the softcover compendiums cost $19.99), and I've had several fall apart. The hardcover version of Savage Worlds Deluxe was also printed abroad, is 160 pages, and cost $29.99.

The better the materials you use, the more expensive the book. Plus Wizards of the Coast has put forth a much larger art and development effort that Pinnacle can. Costs of production and shipping have gone up across the board faster than inflation. Who knows where they might be publishing it. And finally, it's entirely reasonable for a company to sell the core rules at a notable profit. The MSRP is then set so that the store can also make a profit.

Now, I'm not telling you that you have to value these things, or be willing to pay the price offered. Just that it is not necessarily a ripoff.

The easiest way, as you say, to up the value proposition, is to include more content. The increased cost of publishing, printing, and shipping of extra pages is not linear. So, the larger the book, the better the price per page. Which is why I agree that a Rules Cyclopedia style book would be a good call.

 

[Halivar]

While I think an RC-style book is an amazing value, I fear it is a sacred cow too far for a company that is understandably jumpy about futzing with the traditional formula.

 

[DMZ2112]

I figured I'd try to actually answer the OP's question.

Character Generation
- Ability Scores and Saving Throws: Six traditional
- Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Dragonborn. And robust subrace support -- two or three per.
- Backgrounds and Skills: 15 to 20 backgrounds; a skill list comparable to Pathfinder.
- Classes: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue. If subclass support is robust (four or five per?), I don't think the game needs any more classes than this.
- Feats: Three to four dozen play-changing options; no flat buffs.
- Equipment: A robust list, preferably with good reasons to opt for low damage weapons or low-AC armors.
- Spells: At least a dozen per level, more at low levels.

THE PILLARS
- Roleplaying: A brief section on social interaction; bonds, flaws, ideals; alignment (nine-point rose and unaligned); inspiration
- Combat: The game's the thing!
- Exploration: This is important, because these rules shouldn't be dictated to the players by the dungeon master. It should be the players' choice to initiate them, to subvert the weird skill challenge paradigm in D&D4. Players don't ask the dungeon master what their characters should do in combat; they shouldn't have to ask the dungeon master what their characters should do when exploring.

Campaign
- Advancement: I suppose there has to be something to entice the players to their deaths. Characters. I meant characters. Higher-level character generation rules.
- Magic Items: No design or random-generation rules, just a list of basic and iconic D&D items, with GP values for generating higher-level characters.
- Traps and Monsters: The opposite of magic items; no list, but rules for design and balance.
- Random Dungeon Generator: 'Nuff said?

EDIT: Almost forgot! Cover by Komarck, interior art by Lockwood, color plates by Elmore.

 

[TwoSix]

One of the things I'm afraid that will have have pushed this book to the $50 mark is "The Pretty". Pathfinder's core rulebooks suffer from it the most. All the designers have to do is look at the number of folks who downloaded the playtest packets, which had 0 art in them to realize that the value is in the rules themselves and that the shiny of the glossy page backgrounds and copious art isn't needed. Granted, I do like some art in my books, but I like it on the levels that we saw back in the 2E days of the rulebooks (better art, but about the same arrangement), and to a large degree the 4E core books.

Going to have to strenuously disagree here. Pure rules is for an online database. For a core RPG rulebook, I want "The Pretty", and I want it in spades. Pathfinder is exactly the right example to follow.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

To answer the thread, a PHB needs rules to create, play and level-up a PC. D&D has traditionally placed this as ability scores, races, classes, skills (and skill-like stuff, such as feats and proficiency), alignment, equipment, rules for action resolution within a specific time frame (mostly combat, but also interaction and exploration) and spells. That's a lot of stuff.

In the specific context of 5E, though, a PHB needs enough content to allow players of all editions to feel like the game is able to properly emulate what they previously felt was the D&D experience, including monks and sorcerers, a gish-like character that lives up to the spirit of the old elf class, and even some kind of warlord - with or without martial healing. If you include subclasses, subraces and backgrounds in the mix, which didn't appear in any previous PHB, you'll see that page count goes up very quickly. If they manage to pull that, $50 is a fair price to charge for a full color hardcover.

Likewise, a DMG with lots of cool and flavorful magic items and other types of treasure, good advice for both new and old DMs and full of rules modules that we can use to further customize our games is worth $50 to me. In the same vein, anything like a 5E version of the 2E Monstrous Manual is what I would call a $50 Bestiary.

Now, some thoughts on the discussion:

That's a $150 game, half of the official minimum wage in Brazil already (fortunately, I don't work for a minimum wage). I know it's a lot of money, but it's a lot of content too, and I expect to run 5E core only for a long time, with the eventual inclusion of Oriental Adventures/Psionics Handbook stuff, if/when they appear and only if those books are also packed with good stuff. That's $150 for hundreds of hours of entertainment. Let's be honest: not even at that price D&D manages to be an expensive hobby.

"But $50 buys me Pathfinder, a more complete game". Cool, but the truth is that I don't want to play Pathfinder. Paizo could place a 100-page bestiary on the top of those 575 pages and charge $25 for the book that I wouldn't be interested in buying it. I don't care if I get more for my money if I buy Pepsi, because I want to drink Coke. If I'm interested in paying more for what I believe is a better product in other aspects of my life, why it would be different with RPGs?

Cheers!

 

[Wulfgar76]

That's $150 for hundreds of hours of entertainment. Let's be honest: not even at that price D&D manages to be an expensive hobby.

If each rulebook cost $500, D&D would still be a cheap hobby.

I also play MtG - that eats up 10x more money than D&D.
I also have a custom off-road Jeep - don't ask.

 

[TwoSix]

Is there anything you like about 5e? It's an honest question. There are things I like in games that in general I don't like, and I am just asking if there is anything about 5e that you like?

I think dragons have spells again?