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We have the ogre statblock. Has a good detailed copy of the pregen rogue sheet been released yet?

Also, does the 5E CR assume his friends are stepping in to help (as 3E's CR system did) or is it assuming Dougal is on his own in the fight? If the former, we'd need some info on the Fighter, Wizard and Cleric as well.

I've been assuming all four would be engaged - am I thinking wrong?
 

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My assumption for reading CR ratings is based off the 3rd ed claim that a party's typical encounter with an equivalent CR encounter should consume no more than one quarter of the WHOLE party's resources (hit points/spells/disposable items, based on a 4 person party. That's why the party needs to use tactics and cleverness to find ways to reduce that resource burn. So, you can either let one party member take the entire hit, or all of you can bumrush the foe and spread the damage out enough so that the crew can burn through about 4 level-equivalent encounters for your working day.

Now that doesn't always (or even mostly) hold true, but it's an eyeballing goal. And based around that set of assumptions, this CR 2 ogre fits in, far as I can tell. Yeah, one on one, it'll probably murder even a second level character. But four 2nd level characters should be able to put him down without dying horribly.
 

There's two axes. (mathematical, not like "to grind" or "battle-")

CR tells you, more or less, what level PCs should be fighting it. In this respect, it's like Monster Level in 4e or in AD&D 1e.

The monster's XP is used for encounter building. So an Ogre, as a "Large" creature, probably counts for two PCs - maybe even four. This is akin to the Standard/Elite/Solo breakdown in 4e, only obfuscated like so many other things derived from 4e. :uhoh:
 

Also, does the 5E CR assume his friends are stepping in to help (as 3E's CR system did) or is it assuming Dougal is on his own in the fight? If the former, we'd need some info on the Fighter, Wizard and Cleric as well.

I've been assuming all four would be engaged - am I thinking wrong?

Given the scenario of the thief sneaking in alone, in all probability there would be an initial round of combat with just the two of them and the rest of the party entering combat on round two.

It will be interesting to see how that would play out once we have the stats for all involved. :)
 

Given the scenario of the thief sneaking in alone, in all probability there would be an initial round of combat with just the two of them and the rest of the party entering combat on round two.

It will be interesting to see how that would play out once we have the stats for all involved. :)

Well, looking at the CoC map this encounter was based on, everyone's close enough they should be able to act from round one (assuming all parties involved had ready access to their weapons, even Dougal and the Ogre). While it's not unreasonable to rule the Ogre and Dougal having a round alone (and that could be complicated by ruling they both need to draw weapons and the Ogre having to stand, btw), I don't really want to complicate things - just figure out if Dougal has enough of a chance that if the party is forced to fight, and puts down the Ogre (if they can), he can live long enough to swear he "won't do that again".
 

Well, looking at the CoC map this encounter was based on, everyone's close enough they should be able to act from round one (assuming all parties involved had ready access to their weapons, even Dougal and the Ogre). While it's not unreasonable to rule the Ogre and Dougal having a round alone (and that could be complicated by ruling they both need to draw weapons and the Ogre having to stand, btw), I don't really want to complicate things - just figure out if Dougal has enough of a chance that if the party is forced to fight, and puts down the Ogre (if they can), he can live long enough to swear he "won't do that again".

If the rest of the party was close enough to begin combat on round one, of what use was sending in the thief to steal treasure alone? Might as well stay together as a group at that point.

One thing thats extra irritating; the "I'm everywhere" player. Well, I'm not close enough to spoil solo stealth efforts but I am close enought to be RIGHT there when something starts. :hmm:


Nope.
 

If the rest of the party was close enough to begin combat on round one, of what use was sending in the thief to steal treasure alone? Might as well stay together as a group at that point.

One thing thats extra irritating; the "I'm everywhere" player. Well, I'm not close enough to spoil solo stealth efforts but I am close enought to be RIGHT there when something starts. :hmm:


Nope.

:erm: Jeez. All I wanted to find out was if Black Dougal has half a chance of surviving this, and instead I'm having my nits picked. :p
 

I agree with you on 3E. CR sucked. (Or should I say, CR still sucks).

But I do strongly disagree with you on 4E.

Due to recent responses on other topics I'll start with the point that I fully respect other people enjoying different aspects and styles. And I endorse the expectation that WotC strive to provide the best game for everyone.

I see 3E CR as a terrible system, that could easily be ignored. I see the 4E system as a great system for making the math work, but a terrible system for modeling diverse, dynamic population of things to encounter. In great stories the authors are never worried about "balance" or if the math works. "You must be this tall" is a filter that excludes things. I don't want things excluded. I get that excluding things and putting brackets around the limits of things provides reliability and reduced prep time. I respect that. But there is another side and there is merit to not having "you must" or brackets or math as prerequisites for your key building blocks of narrative.

The good thing is that I can ignore CR in 3E and can do the same in any other version. But because the "math works" was so built into 4E it is reflected in the monsters with unsatisfactory results. (again, "for me")

If 5E takes a mechanical "must be this tall" approach to monster design, that will turn off a lot of people.
Except you're conflating two different elements of the issue.

4e's issue, as some people took it, was the constantly scaling monsters, and the math that created a "viability window."

But that's something apart from 4e's encounter building guidelines which took all the numbers and crunched them down into something clear and useful. It was really easy to guess the consequences of various monster compositions, and after building a few encounters of their own "by the numbers" most any DM could be confident when turning the various dials. From a DM's perspective this predictability of outcome is invaluable, regardless of edition.

The concern here is

1) if CR 2 means "this is an appropriate monster to use against a level 2 party" then the jump from level 1 to level 2 is crazy steep. Using this ogre against a level 1 party, even alone, runs a solid risk of killing one or more party members. That's an insane jump, and a huge step backwards from 4e's gradual, predictable upwards curve in difficulty as monster levels went above party level.

1b) 1st and 2nd level characters are kinda stupidly fragile, which is counter intuitive game design, and spitting in the eye of one of 4e's best received changes.

2) All the bits and pieces we've seen of the CR system don't make any cohesive or intuitive sense, so even if they do have a solid underlying system it's already a step back from 4e's instantly intuitive level/role/job monster classification.

As far as "must be this tall", the game needs to have some measure of that, otherwise the DM's job is stacked against them. Dracoliches aren't appropriate foes for a 1st level party. Now maybe the DM just kinda knows that because, you know, Dracoliches. But what level party is a Dracolich appropriate for and how are you supposed to know? And what about, say, gnolls? The intent behind the 5e system is that the DM's toolkit of monsters only expands: as the party levels up monsters are added to the table, but they never drop off the bottom. But, and this is a huge but, that execution relies on the game accurately telling the DM when stuff gets added to the table, and what the boundaries (and consequences) of playing near the edges are. If it doesn't, if, like 3e, the numbers are ultimately meaningless and misleading, then the system can actually be worse than saying "**** it, just guess."
 

:erm: Jeez. All I wanted to find out was if Black Dougal has half a chance of surviving this, and instead I'm having my nits picked. :p
He's probably going to die.

He's got an AC of 14-15 and 6-7 HP, maybe 8. The ogre hits Black Dougal on an 8-9. If Black Dougal didn't put enough points into Con (+0) the Ogre will drop him off base damage alone (6) and the ogre only needs to roll moderately well (8+ on 2d8) to straight kill Black Dougal. For each +1 to Black Dougal's Con mod his odds get better, though he's almost certain to be knocked unconscious in the first round, and will always have some risk of being one-shot (even if he pumped all his points into Con his HP soft-caps at 10, so a crit will always kill him.)
 
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I hear what you're saying. The Beginner Box is available for as low as $23.00 right now though. If the Starter Set is $20 and the Beginner Box is $23, the beginner box wins in value in my opinion.
Not saying it's a better game, just that you get more more for the money you're spending. We'll have to see about the game itself. Personally, I hope it's great.

Wow, are you intentionally misrepresenting things? We all already mentioned that the discount price for the WOTC Starter Set is $12 (and some change), a couple times, before your post. That means the discounted Paizo set is almost twice the price of the discounted WOTC set.
 

Into the Woods

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