D&D 5E Perception in 5e, discuss how it works

[Kobold Stew]

And Survival will only be used to set up pit traps, or as a lore skill to indicate whether an area would be likely to have them or not (based upon the creatures who might be in the area) but not in any way used to actually discover or find them.

I think this is right -- Survival is a red herring in this discussion. Survival is specific outdoorsy-type skills (building fire and shelter, recognizing game tracks, surviving in subzero temps, etc.) and not a perception skill at all.

 

[jgsugden]

A fairly elegant option, but it does rather turn Perception into a 'gateway' skill - you need decent Perception in order to 'activate' the rest of your skillset. ....

I did address that issue. You don't have them roll perception every time they use another skill, only if something is hard to detect. A giant smear on the wall is not hard to see (no perception roll) - but understanding that it was the slime trail of a giant slug would require a nature roll.

 

[Sadrik]

And Survival will only be used to set up pit traps, or as a lore skill to indicate whether an area would be likely to have them or not (based upon the creatures who might be in the area) but not in any way used to actually discover or find them.

I think this is right -- Survival is a red herring in this discussion. Survival is specific outdoorsy-type skills (building fire and shelter, recognizing game tracks, surviving in subzero temps, etc.) and not a perception skill at all.

I think you may be crossing your wires on Nature skill and Survival skill. It is very detect oriented. Follow tracks, notice hazards in a natural setting, perceive signs of weather changes etc. Personally, I would be ok with nixing the survival skill all together and merging the two halves with Investigation and Nature respectively. That said how it stands, I think the intent was for it to be a perceptive skill.

Being a perceptive skill relates directly to previous editions too. I did not like it then too, I did not like that survival looked for tracks but so did search skill it just took longer...

So I am all for it being an outdoor knowledge skill, but that is what nature is...

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think you may be crossing your wires on Nature skill and Survival skill. It is very detect oriented. Follow tracks, notice hazards in a natural setting, perceive signs of weather changes etc. .... That said how it stands, I think the intent was for it to be a perceptive skill.

I stand by my reading, though I do understand where you are coming from. The examples in the basic document are pretty distinct:

Int (Nature) is for recalling lore about terrain plants, animals, weather, and natural cycles.
It is a knowledge skill.

Wis (Survival) is to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide through frozen wastelands, identify signs of owl bears, predict the weather, avoid quicksand.
All of these, except possibly the last, require some active choice by the player to pursue a particular action. Given that, I choose to read "avoid quicksand" not as a perception-based innate response, but an ability to navigate hazards when you are aware of them. It's debatable, and honestly it doesn't really matter. If the last example requires survival to be a perception skill for you, fair enough; it doesn't for me.

The other "iffy" example under survival (for those who want to find things to niggle over) is "follow tracks". I can see the case for that blurring into Int (Investigation): again, though, I don't agree -- I know for myself that I am perfectly capable of stumbling on, or noticing an animal track, or signs that deer are present. That ability, however, tells me nothing about following its path more than a few steps, however -- to actually track something is a completely different skill. So again, for me these remain distinct.

Being a perceptive skill relates directly to previous editions too. I did not like it then too, I did not like that survival looked for tracks but so did search skill it just took longer...

So I am all for it being an outdoor knowledge skill, but that is what nature is...

I'll admit I'm not sure what you are saying here -- I think its the slipperiness of a work like "knowledge" that might actually be an obstacle here. There are different kinds of knowledge, and to my mind they can stay distinct pretty easily. YMMV.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I think this is right -- Survival is a red herring in this discussion. Survival is specific outdoorsy-type skills (building fire and shelter, recognizing game tracks, surviving in subzero temps, etc.) and not a perception skill at all.

if survival lets you avoid quicksand and other natural hazards (according to the starter set), I will definitely let players use it to find other traps in the wilderness, noticing out of place signs, etc. Anything that dilutes perception as the A++ skill is good imo.

 

[Kobold Stew]

See, I get that 100%, as long as Perception isn't also viable to detect the same thing. I think the skills need to be independent.

 

[Sadrik]

if survival lets you avoid quicksand and other natural hazards (according to the starter set), I will definitely let players use it to find other traps in the wilderness, noticing out of place signs, etc. Anything that dilutes perception as the A++ skill is good imo.

I am really liking the option to remove perception and then just go with the other three for their respective areas. No overlap and clear delineation between them (Insight, Investigation, and Survival). And they other stuff too, they are not just perception and that is it. This also enhances the play too. Delete Perception, I think that is a viable option.

 

[Psikerlord#]

See, I get that 100%, as long as Perception isn't also viable to detect the same thing. I think the skills need to be independent.

Yeah I dont mind if perception also can find wilderness traps, bec survival does other things, but perception only detects things. I understand where youre coming from however, and I could work with either approach. What I mainly want to avoid is only perception finding everything all the time, I want at least investigation and survival to help out.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I am really liking the option to remove perception and then just go with the other three for their respective areas. No overlap and clear delineation between them (Insight, Investigation, and Survival). And they other stuff too, they are not just perception and that is it. This also enhances the play too. Delete Perception, I think that is a viable option.

Yeah I dont mind this idea either

 

[mach1.9pants]

Also like the idea of only using passive perception. Not something you do actively, use the other three when you are attempting something and passive perception for the 'somethings not right' thing. very elegant IMO. And I have no problem with having different DCs for them either, if necessary