D&D 5E (2014) So...warlocks?

[Dausuul]

If you aren't going to invest heavily in feats or multiclassing, there is still one virtue of the pact blade: You can make opportunity attacks with it. You can't do that with eldritch blast unless you dump a feat into it.

 

[Runny]

Are we sure that the definitive ruling is that invocations prerequisites are based on character level and not warlock class level? That makes them the multiclassing champs in my book. I'm thinking Paladin 2 / Warlock 3. DnD version of Spawn.

 

[Mirtek]

Rapier with 20 Dex, 20 Cha, Thirsting Blade, and Lifedrinker: 1d8+10 damage twice per round. Average damage: 29 x (chance to hit).
Eldritch blast with 20 Cha and Agonizing Blast: 1d10+5 damage three times per round. Average damage: 31.5 x (chance to hit).

Moreover, 20 Dex/20 Cha is very hard to reach unless you rolled stats and got lucky.

At this point the difference is OK, the problem is once EB has four blasts.

 

[TheGorramBatman]

At this point the difference is OK, the problem is once EB has four blasts.

EB gets its 4th blast at 17th level. Hardly reason enough to dismiss an entire pact in most practical situations.

All the way up to 10th level a typical Warlock can expect EB to do the same damage as a Pact Blade, d8+stat (Rapier for comparison).

Assuming of course the Warlock doesn't take a single level of Fighter for Dueling (or Great Weapon if you're doing something squirrely) style. Either of which would put the damage ball back in the Pact Blade's court.

11th level is a deadzone where EB is patently superior. 3 blasts at d8+stat.

12th the Pact Blade is d8+stat+stat, which can be competitive with EB given the blah blah blah who cares.

All of this discounts magic weapons, which are likely to be plentiful enough to make Pact Blade more than hold its own all the way to 17th and perhaps beyond.

Really, my major beef with Pact Blade is that it doesn't come online until 3rd level. If I build a Pact Blade Warlock, then from the outset I'm imagining some sort of gish. Why the hell do I have to wait until 3rd level for something as basic as what the Pact itself provides? Though the same could be said for any of the Pacts really.

Can we talk briefly about Hunger of Hadar?

How is something that is explicitly a Warlock spell not capable of scaling to a 5th level slot? That's moronic right?

Edit: This whole thing is a lie. EB is d10.

 

[Dausuul]

At this point the difference is OK, the problem is once EB has four blasts.

It's not really OK. Consider:

• You're investing two invocations and your pact boon to get the pact weapon attack; you are investing one invocation and a cantrip to get eldritch blast.
• Eldritch blast is usable at range. While there are times when this is a drawback, in general ranged attacks are superior to melee for obvious reasons.
• The pact weapon deals a mix of weapon and necrotic damage. Eldritch blast deals force damage, which is much less likely to face resistance or immunity.
• To reach the stated damage output, the pact weapon requires heavy investment in both Dexterity and Charisma. If you're building with point buy, there is no way to reach 20 in both stats until level 16. Eldritch blast requires Charisma only.
• You can if you wish enhance eldritch blast further with Repelling Blast. There is no comparable option for the pact weapon.
• For all this stuff you're giving up, you still come out with slightly inferior damage.

 

[TheGorramBatman]

People are getting way too bent out of shape over number of bolts. It really isn't that big of a deal once magic weapons get factored into the equation. Even assuming a +3 weapon at level 17.

They're missing the point.

With Hex, Eldritch Blast becomes clearly superior at 11th level and the Pact Weapon has no way of closing that gap.

Also, EB is force damage which nothing I've found is resistant or immune to. I'd imagine that anything immune to Force damage is also immune to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning.

Frankly, having better attack progression than the Fighter while tossing around d10s of force damage at 300 feet is pretty ridiculous. Then throw in d6s from Hex and all of the class' other utility... The Warlock's worst option when they don't have anything better to do is a superior direct comparison to the Fighter's main shtick.

And they get to cast the whole thing on an opportunity attack? Zzap-Zzap-Zzap-Zzap?

If they had treated EB like Fire Bolt+ we would be having an entirely different conversation right now. It is almost as if they kept the class hidden during the playtest and missed out on months of valuable feedback while simultaneously failing to come to some of these obvious conclusions themselves.

 

[Mirtek]

With Hex, Eldritch Blast becomes clearly superior at 11th level and the Pact Weapon has no way of closing that gap.

I didn't even consider Hex. Using your pact blade instead of your EB means that you're very soon going to lose your Hex. Using EB will means that you can keep your Hex going longer.

 

[TheGorramBatman]

I didn't even consider Hex. Using your pact blade instead of your EB means that you're very soon going to lose your Hex. Using EB will means that you can keep your Hex going longer.

Hyperbole.

Unnecessary hyperbole at that.

Concentration checks deserve very little of the gloom and doom they inspire on these boards. They're not that big of a deal in practice.

Moreover, it's unnecessary.

EB with Hex is superior to Pact Weapon with Hex. Period. That is an argument worth having which is easily backed up by the same math we're already doing. Leave the concentration shenanigans out of it.

 

[kerbarian]

And they get to cast the whole thing on an opportunity attack? Zzap-Zzap-Zzap-Zzap?

Eldritch Blast opportunity attacks will be made with disadvantage (unless you also take Crossbow Expert), so they're not that great. Once you get to three bolts you should be ahead compared to a single pact-blade attack, but I wouldn't consider it a meaningful advantage.

Really, the inability of ranged classes to get out of melee compared to previous editions (no 5' step or shift in 5E) is one of the biggest strengths of the blade pact -- you're no longer screwed in that situation. If you're a ranged warlock, enemies will want to stand right next to you and are unlikely to provoke OAs in the first place.

In general, though, I agree that without a lot of effort (feats and/or multiclassing), Eldritch Blast will easily outpace a pact blade in damage.

 

[Mirtek]

Hyperbole.

How so?

Concentration checks deserve very little of the gloom and doom they inspire on these boards. They're not that big of a deal in practice.

Having to roll an ~8+ (assuming you afford a 14 Con after paying for Cha and either Dex or Str) after every hit is nothingt to sneeze at (and that's only on the early levels, the DC will soon be much higher than 10). Going toe to toe means you're on average losing your hex sooner than hanging out 100 feet away and blasting from there