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D&D 5E Why should I allow Multiclassing ?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
I personally do take it a step further. I think players absolutely owe the DM something. Dming is harder than playing, and there are generally fewer people willing to take the job.

That doesn't mean you deal with a DM tirade or anything of that note, but I think players should "go with the flow" a bit to allow for the game to continue.

Generally my take as well. If there's something I would really like to try out that the GM isn't allowing, I'll make my case for it, but if he persists in disallowing it with anything approaching a decent rationale, I'll let it go and file it away for another campaign, another time. If the GM is going to go to the effort of putting together a campaign, I'm generally going to try to give him the benefit of the doubt and fit in with its assumptions.
 

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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Generally my take as well. If there's something I would really like to try out that the GM isn't allowing, I'll make my case for it, but if he persists in disallowing it with anything approaching a decent rationale, I'll let it go and file it away for another campaign, another time. If the GM is going to go to the effort of putting together a campaign, I'm generally going to try to give him the benefit of the doubt and fit in with its assumptions.
Yea, I agree with this. The DM should get some general buy-in for his campaign idea, and after that the player should give the DM the benefit of the doubt. If the DM is hesitant about a character idea, how is pushing it on him/her going to make for a better game? It's better to have a concept that both you AND the DM are excited about.
 

airwalkrr

Adventurer
To [MENTION=12630]Ahrimon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION], you make some good points. A lot of rules are explicitly called out as optional and say "check with the DM" in the 5e PH. But I do feel like the weight of history behind D&D is bearing down on the PH here. In my experience (your mileage may vary), the PH has always been considered almost entirely non-optional. Ability score generation is one of those things that DMs have, historically, house-ruled because it can set the tone and style for an entire campaign. But aside from that one example, I think any D&D player, regardless of which edition he/she is most familiar with, sits down at the table thinking that the PH rules are going to be taken at face-value unless the DM says otherwise. I've been a DM to dozens of players in various cities and states over the last 15 years (hundreds if you count organized play but those games have very clear rules for chargen) and the only thing players almost always ask when playing in any edition is "how do you do ability scores?" The second-most common question I get is about starting equipment, and even then they usually know going in what the answer is likely to be. They have never asked specifically about spells, combat, classes, or anything else. These things are generally lumped up together in the question "Anything else?" under to the assumption that all other rules are sacred unless I say otherwise, and that is if they ask about anything else at all. Again, YMMV, but this is the consistent experience I have had (and not just in D&D but any RPG with a core rulebook).

The 5e PH is worded much more strongly regarding what is "optional" and what it not, and WotC has emphasized the modular nature of 5e since the beginning. Nevertheless, it is my firmly-held belief that the majority of new 5e players have played some version of D&D before (or at least some similar RPG) and are going to bring those old assumptions with them regardless of how the PH words things. Maybe I am wrong; I haven't run a 5e game yet. But 5e being D&D, it is going to be difficult to shake off 38 years of historical precedent just because the PH is written a bit differently this time around.

Now for brand new players to 5e who have never played another tabletop RPG in their lives, I imagine those players will take the PH far more literally. I estimate they will be the minority, and not just the minority, but a small one, largely legacies who will already carry some of their parents' assumptions with them and video gamers drawn to the hobby because it shares the sword & sorcery theme. I do not see anything about 5e that tells me it is going to drastically increase the number of brand new first-time tabletop RPG players. The investment cost alone for just the PH is pretty high relatively speaking.

Some players will sit down to a 5e game having thoroughly read and digested WotC's modular concept and the PH rules themselves and recognize that "ask the DM" truly means "ask the DM." Even then, I imagine those will be uncommon cases, and having even one of those players in a party of four will be unlikely. Again, I haven't started up a 5e game yet, but using historical precedent, this is what I expect.

I think the best-case scenario is that after a few years 5e players learn to recognize that these things are truly options and not default rules, but the issue will continue to persist for players making the transition from other editions or games.

As I said, I could be wrong about all of this. But having read the PH and having had the experience I have had as a DM, I do not imagine I should expect anything different when I start a 5e game. As usual, I will presume the players presume the PH is pretty much all default rules and if things are otherwise the DM ought to say so in advance. I will be very surprised if I sit down to run my first 5e game and get questions like "are you using multiclassing?" from several players.
 

As I said, I could be wrong about all of this. But having read the PH and having had the experience I have had as a DM, I do not imagine I should expect anything different when I start a 5e game. As usual, I will presume the players presume the PH is pretty much all default rules and if things are otherwise the DM ought to say so in advance. I will be very surprised if I sit down to run my first 5e game and get questions like "are you using multiclassing?" from several players.

ok, so If tomorrow I got invited to a 5e game and the DM said "Just make 5th level characters." I would ask "How do you do stats?" and "Can I start with magic items?" and then would make a character... and think nothing of being a 3/2 fighter (battle master)/ Wizard... I just would assume multi classing unless otherwise told was in... then again I would assume feats as weell
 

Zardnaar

Legend
To [MENTION=12630]Ahrimon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION], you make some good points. A lot of rules are explicitly called out as optional and say "check with the DM" in the 5e PH. But I do feel like the weight of history behind D&D is bearing down on the PH here. In my experience (your mileage may vary), the PH has always been considered almost entirely non-optional. Ability score generation is one of those things that DMs have, historically, house-ruled because it can set the tone and style for an entire campaign. But aside from that one example, I think any D&D player, regardless of which edition he/she is most familiar with, sits down at the table thinking that the PH rules are going to be taken at face-value unless the DM says otherwise. I've been a DM to dozens of players in various cities and states over the last 15 years (hundreds if you count organized play but those games have very clear rules for chargen) and the only thing players almost always ask when playing in any edition is "how do you do ability scores?" The second-most common question I get is about starting equipment, and even then they usually know going in what the answer is likely to be. They have never asked specifically about spells, combat, classes, or anything else. These things are generally lumped up together in the question "Anything else?" under to the assumption that all other rules are sacred unless I say otherwise, and that is if they ask about anything else at all. Again, YMMV, but this is the consistent experience I have had (and not just in D&D but any RPG with a core rulebook).

The 5e PH is worded much more strongly regarding what is "optional" and what it not, and WotC has emphasized the modular nature of 5e since the beginning. Nevertheless, it is my firmly-held belief that the majority of new 5e players have played some version of D&D before (or at least some similar RPG) and are going to bring those old assumptions with them regardless of how the PH words things. Maybe I am wrong; I haven't run a 5e game yet. But 5e being D&D, it is going to be difficult to shake off 38 years of historical precedent just because the PH is written a bit differently this time around.

Now for brand new players to 5e who have never played another tabletop RPG in their lives, I imagine those players will take the PH far more literally. I estimate they will be the minority, and not just the minority, but a small one, largely legacies who will already carry some of their parents' assumptions with them and video gamers drawn to the hobby because it shares the sword & sorcery theme. I do not see anything about 5e that tells me it is going to drastically increase the number of brand new first-time tabletop RPG players. The investment cost alone for just the PH is pretty high relatively speaking.

Some players will sit down to a 5e game having thoroughly read and digested WotC's modular concept and the PH rules themselves and recognize that "ask the DM" truly means "ask the DM." Even then, I imagine those will be uncommon cases, and having even one of those players in a party of four will be unlikely. Again, I haven't started up a 5e game yet, but using historical precedent, this is what I expect.

I think the best-case scenario is that after a few years 5e players learn to recognize that these things are truly options and not default rules, but the issue will continue to persist for players making the transition from other editions or games.

As I said, I could be wrong about all of this. But having read the PH and having had the experience I have had as a DM, I do not imagine I should expect anything different when I start a 5e game. As usual, I will presume the players presume the PH is pretty much all default rules and if things are otherwise the DM ought to say so in advance. I will be very surprised if I sit down to run my first 5e game and get questions like "are you using multiclassing?" from several players.

The weight of history actually goes the other way, 3.5 and 4E were the odd ones out. AD&D had plenty of optional rules, OD&D/BECMI did not have multiclassing. Its only been one true way so to speak for around 15/40 years of D&D history.
 


ok, so If tomorrow I got invited to a 5e game and the DM said "Just make 5th level characters." I would ask "How do you do stats?" and "Can I start with magic items?" and then would make a character... and think nothing of being a 3/2 fighter (battle master)/ Wizard... I just would assume multi classing unless otherwise told was in... then again I would assume feats as weell
Someone who's name is "GM for Power Gamers" using a sub-par build? *gasp!*

All joking aside, you should also be wondering about the variant human as well. Technically, that's optional as well. The variant rules for familiars, ala Monster Manual, could allow your wizard to start with an psuedodragon familiar. Optional, but hinted at more than once. The former has a higher instance of being casually accepted as opposed to the latter.

"Just make a character" seems to indicate that one is being given carte blanch to make whatever they wanted. It may not be explicitly stated, but it is being implicitly implied based on the little context given. I would expect that such a DM, in response to your stat generation question, would let you pick any of the three available. Probably say no to the magic items, since no way of buying them is readily available, and the only categorization for them is by rarity, and I would imagine someone giving rules on creation would include "take 2 uncommon magic items" as part of their opening spiel. Although, some groups may assume that taking the assumed number of magic items is part of character creation, so that's open to debate.


Anyways, my point is - there's definite levels of acceptableness of various variant rules. Several different kinds are acceptable based on how well you know your GM, and what's implied by the conversation, and others are not. Thus, simply assuming one way or another for any of the rules is highly subjective based on tables. At an unfamiliar table, you should always ask, flat out.
 
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Someone who's name is "GM for Power Gamers" using a sub-par build? *gasp!*
I often play subpar builds... the name came from a group of players who of the 5 of them only 1 still plays with me who were VERY powergamey...although not always good at it...

Anyways, my point is - there's definite levels of acceptableness of various variant rules. Several different kinds are acceptable based on how well you know your GM, and what's implied by the conversation, and others are not. Thus, simply assuming one way or another for any of the rules is highly subjective based on tables. At an unfamiliar table, you should always ask, flat out.

see I think if a DM is really worried about what is and isn't exceptable he should say it, I shouldn't be expected to ask too many quastions...

my jan 5e game I have a list of about 20 house rule/restrictions... and the first is no variant humans.
I have my players starting at level 5, with there choice of being either straight classed or being 3/2 (no other set of levels are makeable) and there background has to allow for why they are being knighted. They each start with 1 magic item of my chooseing but they can in general ask for something (Magic sword, a magic ring, a defense item, but not a +1 sword)
 


Remathilis

Legend
How bout a compromise?

Allow multi-classing, but demand training time (in the form of time off and GP spent) to gain that level. There are rules for training time in the DMG, start with that.

A first level fighter wants to level to second level? He does so as soon as he get the XP.
A first level fighter wants to pick up a level of wizard? Well, now he has to find a tutor to teach him magic, buy a spellbook and wand, spend several weeks learning basic cantrips and magical formula, and none of that is cheap. Oh, and your friends have to wait around while you do it. Are you really sure you want to change careers?
 

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