D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[pemerton]

As always, I'm amazed at your patience, pemerton.

Apparently I've got too much time on my hands!

(Or more accurately, I'm stuck on a semi-technical problem that I can't find a solution too, and am therefore very open to distractions.)

 

[pemerton]

Clear objectives are a way the players can win.

What do you think the clear objectives are in 4e?

The only discussion of "win" conditions that I found on a quick look through the 4e PHB was this, on p 6:

You “win” the Dungeons 7 Dragons game by participating in an exciting story of bold adventurers confronting deadly perils. The game has no real end; when you finish one story or quest, you can start another one. Many people who play the D&D game keep their games going for months or years, meeting with their friends every week to pick up the story where they left off.​

That strikes me as virtually identical to the "win" conditions stated in the Basic PDF for 5e:

There’s no winning and losing in the Dungeons & Dragons game - at least, not the way those terms are usually understood. Together, the DM and the players create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils. . . . The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win.​

The description of what the GM and players collectively do is completely identical in the two passages, except that 4e uses the verb "participate" and 5e the verb "create".

 

[pemerton]

On the "board game" point - there is a current thread about the use of table-top terrain and miniatures for the 5e Starter Set adventure.

There is one poster who talks about the (non-)importance of tactical movement as a reason for not preferring that sort of approach. But no one has yet suggested that 5e is a boardgame!

 

[SirAntoine]

That...doesn't really help me understand you. I don't know what "clear objectives" exist in 4e that allegedly do not exist in any other version of D&D. Can you give an example? I did some thinking about this over dinner, and every time I thought I'd come up with something, it boiled down to "participating in the story," "winning a fight," or "avoiding death," which are all present in every version of D&D I know of and have played (B/X, 2e, 3e, 4e).

It's not unique to 4e, it's just a quality of a board game experience. D&D shares that with board games, even though the proverbial object of play, also known as how to win, is open-ended. You win each time you achieve the objectives in the adventure. You also win as you advance in level, and as you enter each greater tier of levels. Classic D&D, or Basic, included relatively particular scenario selection in adventure design. An adventure often had in mind "exploring the unknown," "investigating an enemy outpost," or "rescuing prisoners", for example. Board games are not usually open-ended, but they can be, too. HeroQuest, for example, is a fantasy board game where you get to play a character who earns more power and equipment as he completes quests.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Clear objectives are a way the players can win.

how do you win at D&D? I guess if you have a fun time that's winning?!?!!?

 

[SirAntoine]

I'm not sure what you mean by win, or rather what the player is winning. Do you mean something short term like "survive the fight"? Or something like "throw the One Ring into Mount Doom"? I haven't really seen a difference in players "winning" D&D; "winning" a campaign seems to come down to good role playing, possibly well-made and effective characters, and the players succeeding at the campaign's goals.

It's just part of board games. Every edition of D&D shares it to a lesser degree.

 

[SirAntoine]

What do you think the clear objectives are in 4e?

The only discussion of "win" conditions that I found on a quick look through the 4e PHB was this, on p 6:

You “win” the Dungeons 7 Dragons game by participating in an exciting story of bold adventurers confronting deadly perils. The game has no real end; when you finish one story or quest, you can start another one. Many people who play the D&D game keep their games going for months or years, meeting with their friends every week to pick up the story where they left off.​

That strikes me as virtually identical to the "win" conditions stated in the Basic PDF for 5e:

There’s no winning and losing in the Dungeons & Dragons game - at least, not the way those terms are usually understood. Together, the DM and the players create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils. . . . The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win.​

The description of what the GM and players collectively do is completely identical in the two passages, except that 4e uses the verb "participate" and 5e the verb "create".

Speaking of "any other objectives" within 4e, the combat roles come to mind.

 

[SirAntoine]

Actually, you are the one who said that.

I wonder why.

 

[pemerton]

I wonder why.

You can call me what you like - within reason and board rules! But please don't post inaccurate statements about what I have said, or saying that I have called myself things that I haven't.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think the issue is some people want it to grow into 4e... but we already had that edition...

I don't want 4e again, I really want the best parts of 4e reworked and made better in 5e...