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D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

You're correct - I was also AFB and mis-remembered.

Imaro raises a similar point to yours:

I think the greater movement speed with disengage compared to fighting withdrawal is a meaningful difference - for instance, it means that you can keep pace with your archer and caster friends who are retreating, whereas in AD&D you have either get left behind or eat an attack.

A lot depends on overall encounter layout, tendencies in dispositions of forces, etc. In my AD&D experience, though, fighting withdrawal was not a widely-used option because it precluded attacking while not permitting serious movement.

For me, the difference would be that the default effect of a fighting withdrawal is that you are still in melee but in a new position (eg closer to your friends, if they are holding their positions). Whereas the default effect of disengage is that you are out of melee. For instance, because of turn-by-turn resolution in 3E and later editions, if you disengage in 5e there is actually a point in the round where you are out of melee; whereas the more-or-less simultaneous resolution of AD&D means that a fighting withdrawal never actually takes you out of melee. You have to use the "retreat" option and soak the enemy's attack sequence (and without getting an attack oneself).

It's been a long time since AD&D so I can't comment on the significance, if any, of the simultaneous-ish AD&D combat round for fighting retreats--but as far as retreating archer buddies goes, 5E is just as speedy as AD&D. in AD&D, if you take a fighting withdrawal at half-speed, you've moving 60 feet while your archer buddies move 120 feet, or else they also move at half speed and (I think) can still make an attack. Your enemy can also move at half speed and make an attack, so you're not really gaining anything.

In 5E, you Disengage instead of attacking or Dashing and then move 30 feet. Your archer buddies either move at full speed (60 feet) by Dashing, or else move 30 feet and make an attack. Meanwhile the enemy can move 30 feet and make an attack, so Disengage isn't buying you anything unless special circumstances come into play like higher movement or other melee combatants. As far as withdrawal speed goes, 5E is exactly as relatively fast as AD&D. It's hard to imagine that as an design accident.
 

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Because you have an extra body to use as a blocker, a combatant etc. Hence it is like a summoning ability.

In the typical AD&D or Basic D&D or OD&D dungeon, there is not a shortage of NPCs/creatures to charm.

There are no shortages of rocks in D&D either, but me picking one up an carrying it with me is not summoning it.

The reason it resembles a summoning effect is because it gives you an extra body to deploy. An extra body that can block, attack etc. Which is a classic control function. (I've never seen anyone doubt that 4e's characterisation of summoning as a battlefield control effect is in error.)

So a ranger with a pet is what you consider a traditional "controller" role? Or a Paladin with his or her mount? Who knew that when I convinced Burly the Burly to act as my henchmen, I wasn't actually playing a striker (ranger focused on archery), but was actually a controller because I had a buddy. I guess that's good to know...

BryonD already answered the Gandalf thing, so it doesn't bear repeating. I'll only say that for every White Dwarf article you have, I can show about a dozen examples of him being portrayed as a Wizard. And that's not even counting the fact that a name level MU is called a wizard--just like Gandalf.

I would sincerely hope that you can see just how flimsy your arguments are, and they're not getting any stronger.

"I have a mouse! “I'm gonna hug him and pet him and squeeze him and love him forever!"
"You have a pet mouse Lenny? You're a summoner!"
 


The traditional role of the D&D fighter since the early days was the tank or fighter wall who stood at the front of the party and traded melee damage while the cleric immediately behind him healed him, the wizard cast spells and the thief bled in the corner because he failed to surprise the monster.

Those traditional roles weren't exactly perfect. That the fighter could be a mediocre archer (or a good one, with double-specialization, later), didn't make him a better tank or a better class, just a less-focused one.

Emphasis Mine: I think you're wrong... for a player whose concept for his fighter is archer... it is an objectively better class... and for many it wasn't less focused but more versatile since nothing prevented you from choosing to create a meatshield if that's how you wanted to play... of course at that point role is no longer bound to class...

Every class got to be basically effective in both melee and range - perhaps at the cost of a single feat or carrying the odd secondary weapon. The fighter, for instance, could use heavy thrown weapons perfectly effectively, and his core feature, Combat Challenge did technically work with them.

But none of his powers did which means he was less effective both damage wise and in versatility. With the way 4e was designed being restricted in combat to basic attacks was in fact being ineffective... at least compared to everyone else whose using powers.

Melee training made most classes able to do something in melee. It's actually one of the less baseless (if not very cogent) complaints about 4e that it was too 'easy' on PCs by allowing most of them to be at least somewhat effective in most situations, rather than having a more rock/papers/scissors/lizard/Spock kinda thing going, in which some or most of the party is sitting out many challenges.

There is a ton of difference between being able to do "something" vs. being effective. You seem to be glossing over whether or not these feats or ability to use a weapon in fact made them "effective" or not.

The question isn't really does the fighter cover more concepts in one edition than another, but whether the edition covers more concepts (or, specifically, the concept you want) and does so well, not just for you, but for everyone at the table. The traditional - and 5e - fighter handle a fighter-wall tank well enough, and the 5e fighter can be an acceptable high-damage archer, outside of the earliest incarnations, the fighter also made an appallingly good TWFing quisinart of doom. OTOH, they fail when it comes to defending allies outside of narrow corridors and doorways, being party leaders or having anything much to do outside of combat.

You specifically call out 5e so I'm going to again have to disagree. For the first time in D&D the fighter has the same amount of skills as every class and through his background (and if applicable race) can choose nearly any skill he really wants, even those outside the purview of his class skills...

As to his defensive capabilities... have you looked at the battle master? A battle master fighter can choose the Protection fighting style and the sentinel feat to gain the base capabilities of the defender fighter... from there you structure him around maneuvers that increase his stickiness. How exactly is he unable to fill the "defender of allies" role if built to do it?

A leader would take the Commander's Strike & Rally maneuvers, possibly Distractuing Strike to impose Disadvantage on opponents along with the Inspiring Leader feat


The thing that isn't happening is the Fighter class being synonymous with a single role like it was in pre-essentials 4e.

Look at 4e, and you can have an excellent defender, even when not given a convenient choke point, a killer archer with a lot of in-combat and out-of-combat options, a TWFing death-machine, and a capable battle-leader who contributes to the party meaningfully in mechanical ways. But you're looking at 3 distinct, balanced, fully-realized classes. There are simply more playable martial classes than in other editions, so each class can be devoted to a single role. And, since they use a common class structure, there isn't a huge barrier to entry when it comes to learning a new class, so your choice isn't constricted in that sense either.

I'll just agree to disagree with most of this and accept we probably view 4e differently enough that we'll continuously go back and forth here so it probably isn't constructive for me to address this, that said...

There's no 'straightjacket' in this analysis - except the one you wear in your mind when you can't grasp the fact that the 4e archer needn't be of the fighter class.
But, that was in the brief period when roles were formalized, and class design was even-handed enough to let martial classes handle several of them.

This is wrong... the ranger and fighter had different proficiencies, skills, important attributes, etc. so picking a ranger wasn't just picking an archer... and having the ranger as the only competent archer was in fact a restriction.



5e, to get back to the original question is different. It doesn't have formal roles...

Exactly...
 
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This is wrong... the ranger and fighter had different proficiencies, skills, important attributes, etc. so picking a ranger wasn't just picking an archer... and having the ranger as the only competent archer was in fact a restriction.

Yes, but IMO restrictions are one of the main features of class-based systems. Classes consist of features and restrictions e.g. some classes can cast spells, some can't. Some classes can be good archers, some can't. And then there are the classes who could invest some options in spellcasting or archery via multiclassing etc, but will never be good at it.

In 4e the restriction that rangers are the archer class isn't an arbitrary one. Ranged attacks were assigned in 4e to the striker role as the easiest method of being able to pick out specific targets. High damaging ranged attacks are something that belongs to a striker class in 4e terms.

The 4e fighter doesn't cover all the historical options of the fighter class in previous editions e.g, the fighter archer. While the 4e essentials fighter can function as an archer, it won't be as damaging as a ranger and won't scale as well at higher levels.

There are character concepts that don't translate well in D&D, and these concepts vary from edition to edition. Multiclassed fighter magic users could be great within their level limits in AD&D and 2nd ed, but didn't work well in 3e.

Now, whether class features and restrictions are appealing or not is in many ways a matter of taste.

Various ediions have different ways of building PCs, where originally as designed or as emergent properties from the mechanics and the demands of the player base e.g. in 3e the almost ubiquity of wands of cure light wounds IMO wasn't designed but was a logical solution to the healing problem latched onto by players and some DMs.
 

Yes, but IMO restrictions are one of the main features of class-based systems. Classes consist of features and restrictions e.g. some classes can cast spells, some can't. Some classes can be good archers, some can't. And then there are the classes who could invest some options in spellcasting or archery via multiclassing etc, but will never be good at it.

Well I am not arguing whether your opinion or preferences are right or wrong... however I find it odd that on the one hand [MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION] Vargus (and many others) are arguing there are no restrictions in 4e around class/role but now you're saying there are and you consider this a feature of 4e as opposed to a bug... fair enough I guess but it'd be nice to get some consensus around that with 4e fans...

In 4e the restriction that rangers are the archer class isn't an arbitrary one. Ranged attacks were assigned in 4e to the striker role as the easiest method of being able to pick out specific targets. High damaging ranged attacks are something that belongs to a striker class in 4e terms.

I'm not arguing that they are or aren't arbitrary... though I will note leaders like the cleric have ranged attack powers... as do wizards... and even the paladin (a defender) I believe, has ranged attack powers...though I could be mistaken... so I'm not sure how accurate your theory about assignment of ranged attacks are in this case.

The 4e fighter doesn't cover all the historical options of the fighter class in previous editions e.g, the fighter archer. While the 4e essentials fighter can function as an archer, it won't be as damaging as a ranger and won't scale as well at higher levels.

Agree... though I was purposefully excluding essentials since we are nowhere near that point in 5e's lifecycle.

There are character concepts that don't translate well in D&D, and these concepts vary from edition to edition. Multiclassed fighter magic users could be great within their level limits in AD&D and 2nd ed, but didn't work well in 3e.

I'm not disputing this I found 4e's hybrid system created either very synergistic combos or a MAD character if the wrong two classes were chosen ... though I think multi-classing is a little bit of a different beast since it's combining two different classes as opposed to the competencies contained within a single class.

Now, whether class features and restrictions are appealing or not is in many ways a matter of taste.

Various ediions have different ways of building PCs, where originally as designed or as emergent properties from the mechanics and the demands of the player base e.g. in 3e the almost ubiquity of wands of cure light wounds IMO wasn't designed but was a logical solution to the healing problem latched onto by players and some DMs.

I'm not arguing against anything you've stated though... the original statement that I was arguing against was that the restrictions surrounding classes in 4e were self-imposed as opposed to mechanically imposed... because someone who wanted to play an archery fighter could choose to play a ranger...
 

Emphasis Mine: I think you're wrong... for a player whose concept for his fighter is archer... it is an objectively better class...
It sucks pretty hard for the players whose concept of his fighter is stealthy knife-fighter who sneaks up and stabbs people in the back, or a bearded old man in a robe who casts spells, too.

Classes can often fit multiple concepts, but a class that does one set of closely related concepts well isn't a bad class, nor is a class that throws in a few more unrelated concepts and does the whole lot less well a better one.

'Class' in D&D, like Role, didn't have a really clear concept early on. But, unlike role, each class was formalized, even as the idea of what a class was meant to represent wasn't. So, in D&D, you've had classes based on what the class can accomplish, how the class accomplishes things, or even how it feels about what it's accomplishing - and, of course, classes specific to a culture.

A Barbarian, for instance, might seem like a great class, if you think cultural differences merit a separate class. Or, it might be seen as redundant in a game that already has the Fighter.

Until you settle on what a class is supposed to represent, it's hard to judge how good a job its doing. 4e /seemed/ to settle on class being a combination of Role and Source, though it didn't stick to it post-Essentials. Other editions didn't settle on anything. The 5e fighter stands in for just about every martial class conceived in the history of the game - Fighter, archer-ranger, duelist, knight, tempest, TWF ranger, gladiator, defender, warlord, slayer, not to mention myriad PrCs - everything but the thief & assassin, prettymuch. OTOH, the magic-user of the classic game has been divided up into 8 school wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, arcane tricksters, eldritch knights, and even bards.


and for many it wasn't less focused but more versatile

since nothing prevented you from choosing to create a meatshield if that's how you wanted to play... of course at that point role is no longer bound to class...
And nothing prevented you from creating or playing an archer, either, since the Fighter wasn't the sole martial class in the game.

But none of his powers did which means he was less effective both damage wise and in versatility. With the way 4e was designed being restricted in combat to basic attacks was in fact being ineffective... at least compared to everyone else whose using powers.
Nod. Ranged-oriented characters could fall back on melee basics, melee-oriented ones had ways of getting off ranged basic attacks, or a few oddball range powers. But that was in a single character. The 2e fighter who was a great archer was less great at melee, the 3.x fighter had to sink a lot of feats into one thing to be really good at it, so wasn't great elsewhere. A 5e STR-based heavy-armor 'tank' fighter is not going to compare to an archer at range. So, really, it's not something that has changed over the editions. It's just what class you take if you want to be a dedicated archer that hasn't been perfectly consistent.

You specifically call out 5e so I'm going to again have to disagree. For the first time in D&D the fighter has the same amount of skills as every class and through his background (and if applicable race) can choose nearly any skill he really wants
You mis-read me, there. I was back to the old-school fighter at that point.

Backgrounds are nice idea, very like backgrounds and themes in 4e (you probably weren't aware of 4e Backgrounds, or you wouldn't have said 5e was the 'first' time you could get access to any skill through a backtround) or Kits in 2e (not quite so versatile nor as consistent in what the represented, but similar ideas to 4e & 5e backgrounds and 4e themes or even 3.5 PrCs). And, Backgrounds have loosened up the problems 3.x and earlier had with balancing some classes' combat power vs others out-of-combat skill capability (most evident with Fighter vs Rogue/Thief - clearly looking for a balance between combat power on the fighter side and out of combat usefulness on the Rogue side, while missing that neither, nor, indeed, both combined, could at all compete with casters in or out of combat, once you got out of the level 'sweat spot').

Backgrounds in 5e make skills largely a non-issue for comparing classes.

As to his defensive capabilities... have you looked at the battle master?
Yes. Garbage. The battlemaster is to 4e martial classes as a class with nothing but Cantrips would be to classic, 3.x & 5e casters.


The thing that isn't happening is the Fighter class being synonymous with a single role like it was in pre-essentials 4e.
The fighter /is/ synonymous with the tank role, always has been. In 5e, you can pull in hints at secondary roles - through backgrounds or archeytpes - but the fighter is tough and does damage (especially does damage). That's consistent with what it was in old-school, and with the informal role that's always implied.

the ranger and fighter had different proficiencies, skills, important attributes, etc. so picking a ranger wasn't just picking an archer... and having the ranger as the only competent archer was in fact a restriction.
The ranger wasn't the only competent archer. Any class with a fair selection of Ranged Weapon powers that didn't somehow exclude bows could be pretty darn good at archery.

However, the Ranger was the only real choice for an all-MARTIAL Longbow-wielding dedicated archer. All the ranger's traditional woodsiness, though, was optional at that point. A ranger wasn't even obliged to take Nature, cast no nature-oriented spells (no spells at all, in fact), didn't automatically get an animal companion and, while it had a slightly different (better) skill list than the fighter, could pick the same skills as fighter probably would pretty easily - using a Background if you really wanted Intimidate or Streetwise for some reason.

So not that restrictive. Still more restrictive than it needed to be, though: 4e could have benefited from putting more emphasis on Backgrounds for determining skills, as 5e did, or possibly even taken Backgrounds as far as having formalized non-combat roles. But, while how 4e might have been made better is a pleasant topic of conversation, it has little to do with classes and roles. The fact is, if you wanted a non-spell-casting archer in 4e, you could have one, and he'd be /very/ good at it, with not just high-damage multi-attacking, but the variety offered by encounter & daily exploits (manuevers), as well.

Ironically, critics of 5e relative to 4e, often make the same flawed comparison with the Ranger. Just as you find fault in having an excellent all-martial archer not having the name 'fighter' on the sheet, they find fault with an excellent 5e all-martial woodsy type not having the name 'ranger' on the sheet, complaining that the Ranger is 'forced' to cast spells, when all they have to do is play a Fighter with the Outland background and get everything they have any right to expect from a non-casting, all-martial Ranger (well, except for the versatility and peak power of encounter and daily maneuvers, of course).
 
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Well I am not arguing whether your opinion or preferences are right or wrong... however I find it odd that on the one hand [MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION] Vargus (and many others) are arguing there are no restrictions in 4e around class/role but now you're saying there are and you consider this a feature of 4e as opposed to a bug... fair enough I guess but it'd be nice to get some consensus around that with 4e fans..

This is my interpretation, obviously.

I'm not arguing that they are or aren't arbitrary... though I will note leaders like the cleric have ranged attack powers... as do wizards... and even the paladin (a defender) I believe, has ranged attack powers...though I could be mistaken... so I'm not sure how accurate your theory about assignment of ranged attacks are in this case.

My mistake in my previous post was not initially specifying "high damage ranged attack" as a striker-siloed ability category in 4e. AFAIK the preponderance of high damage ranged attacks have been assigned to strikers. Strikers often have a bonus damage feature that kicks up this damage still further. Non-strikers by design have less damaging attacks available to them for the most part and have less ways of boosting their damage.

Non-striker classes have some ranged attacks, but as far as I can remember they tend to be lower damage or shorter ranged. Some have riders which are important features of the power, especially in the case of controllers.
I remember there is a 4e high damage wizard build, but not the details.

Alternatively, strikers are designed to do high damage, and some have ranged attacks which are boosted to do high damage by their bonus damage feature.

I'm not arguing against anything you've stated though... the original statement that I was arguing against was that the restrictions surrounding classes in 4e were self-imposed as opposed to mechanically imposed... because someone who wanted to play an archery fighter could choose to play a ranger...

I've seen too many players and referees beat their head against a brick wall trying to play a particular edition as if it was the previous one and fighting all the changes they disagreed with to feel that's a style of play that needs encouragement. I saw it moving from 1e to 2e, from 2e to 3e, and certainly from 3e to 4e. Every version of the game needs to be evaluated on it's own terms. That doesn't mean I advocate forgetting the lessons of previous editions. The evaluation in the end may be "I don't like this edition" for any particular edition of course.
 

My mistake in my previous post was not initially specifying "high damage ranged attack" as a striker-siloed ability category in 4e. AFAIK the preponderance of high damage ranged attacks have been assigned to strikers. Strikers often have a bonus damage feature that kicks up this damage still further. Non-strikers by design have less damaging attacks available to them for the most part and have less ways of boosting their damage.
Nod. Strikers are probably the simplest role to comprehend. The kill things, generally one thing at a time - but their not so tough that things don't stand a chance of killing them right back (so they need Defenders and Leaders). The stereotypical archer fits that pretty neatly. It's not that the archer archetype is absent in any edition (though it's not too great in early classic D&D), just that which cubby it's placed in varies with how the edition is conceived and organized. Among other oddities, like 4e & 5e having archers that are all about DEX, getting both attack & damage from that stat, while prior eds take attack from DEX and damage from STR (iff you have the right kind of bow). Heck, if they had a "STR bow" in 4e ("though it is a projectile weapon, this bow has the 'heavy throw' quality") & 5e ("with this custom-made bow, you can apply your STR mod instead of your DEX mod to attacks and damage, your DM will determine what happens when you use a STR bow made for a higher or lower STR than your own..."), you'd be right back to the strong, heavy-armor fighter being able to be a pretty decent archer.

Non-striker classes have some ranged attacks, but as far as I can remember they tend to be lower damage or shorter ranged. Some have riders which are important features of the power, especially in the case of controllers.
I remember there is a 4e high damage wizard build, but not the details.
The wizard could definitely be tweaked towards a secondary striker role, yes. So could the fighter - in melee - for that matter. :shrug:
 

But this is a great example of how your experiences and past seem to be trapped and isolated in a bubble.

<snip>

You assessment is cool. In my group your would get a lot of credit for playing a Gandalf inspired cleric, and for clinging more closely to the LotR narrative as strict inspiration. I don't dispute that merits of that model as an interesting take.

<snip>

But the wizard = Gandalf or Merlin expectation was assumed to be true early on.

<snip>

So the players "as Gandalf" would do the cool thing that they wanted Gandalf to do. And they would not get hung up on "Hey, Gandalf never actually did that." Pretty soon Fireball is the go-to spell. The perception over just a few months of play evolves from Gandalf could have done this to my Gandalf inspired magic-user does this all the time.
I think you misunderstand.

I know there are people who play fireball slinging wizards and, because the mini or the character sketch has a grey cloak and a floppy, conical hat, think of themselves as Gandalf.

To generalise slightly, these are the same players who play mercenary PCs who pile up chests of gold and thick of themselves as playing Conan.

I'm not in a "bubble" as to the existence of these players. I just don't think they exhaust the possibilities of the game. Gandalf and Conan, as literary creations, are not just superficial collections of tropes.

Iron Crown Enterprises published a Middle Earth RPG for over 10 years in the 80s and 90s. A constant point of contention about that game was that its wizards - who were functionally comparable to D&D wizard - were not a good match for Gandalf et al.

And when the invoker debuted in 4e, it was widely recognised as the "Gandalf" class - divinely inspired, wielding a staff, and using radiant powers to inspire allies and strike down enemies (particularly the radiant-vulnerable undead).

Which connects to roles, and to my remark upthread about mechanics to which you responded quite critically. If you play AD&D having regard to the mechanics, the different character classes will tend to yield discernible roles. Conversely, the more that PC building is treated as collecting a bundle of tropes and flavour implications, which the GM is then expected to somehow meld into outcomes in action resolution, the less roles will emerge in play. A lot of 2nd ed AD&D in particular was played in this latter way. I think 3E/PF has an interesting relationship to that playstyle: it tends to preserve that approach to PC build and then append mechanical resolution on to the tropes/flavour implications.

5e is, I think, a different take on this same approach, trying to use some non-class-build mechanics (eg bounded accuracy) to mean that this approach doesn't lead to some of the mechanical disparities that many (by no means all) experienced in 3E. The discussion of this has just been opened up on [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION]'s L&L retrospective thread.
 

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