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D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

I think you misunderstand.

I know there are people who play fireball slinging wizards and, because the mini or the character sketch has a grey cloak and a floppy, conical hat, think of themselves as Gandalf.

To generalise slightly, these are the same players who play mercenary PCs who pile up chests of gold and thick of themselves as playing Conan.

I'm not in a "bubble" as to the existence of these players. I just don't think they exhaust the possibilities of the game.
No, you are just changing your tune now.

You specially said "As was well discussed in the magazines of the time, you also didn't play a magic-user to play a Gandalf-like character. Gandalf was more often modelled as a cleric"

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?408712-What-are-the-Roles-now/page140#ixzz3TMiflls2

What you actually said WILDLY mischaracterized the history of the game as played.
You did not say "you sometimes didn't play a magic-user to play Gandalf", you said "you also didn't play a magic-user to play a Gandalf-like character". You claimed it was "well discussed" and directly stated that the cleric was "more often".

If those statements are true to you, then you are deeply in a bubble, isolated, clueless as to what a lot of other people are doing.

If those statements are not true to you then you are simply being dishonest to win a debate (and doing a really bad job of it).
 

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I completely respect your opinion on the ability to play Gandalf as a cleric or druid or whatever. But this is a great example of how your experiences and past seem to be trapped and isolated in a bubble.

You said "As was well discussed in the magazines of the time, you also didn't play a magic-user to play a Gandalf-like character. Gandalf was more often modelled as a cleric" and now you are referencing a single item from White Dwarf. I wouldn't be surprised that with enough digging you could find a stray bit of support somewhere in Dragon. But the presence of "Gandalf as wizard" was ubiquitous.

The problem here is a culture clash. The D&D wizard sucks at replicating Gandalf. According to a particularly notorious (and well argued) article in Dragon Issue #5, Gandalf was a fifth level magic user. Gandalf was also the only member of the party able to go sword-to-whip with the Balrog, meaning that Aragorn and Boromir were both weaker in combat than a level five multiclass character.

For some groups "I wear a hat and can cast spells" is enough to say "I'm Gandalf". And for some groups the SCA version of history is more than sufficient to say they are reproducing history.

For other groups, "This character might be able to dress like Gandalf but behaves nothing like him and the game mechanics actively make it almost impossible to behave like him in almost any way" is a killer argument.

And there was a culture clash between the groups willing to put up with a D&D wizard in cosplay as Gandalf and those who actually wanted to play Gandalf when they were trying to play Gandalf. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] IIRC favoured Runequest at the time - which is less cosplayish than pre-4e D&D (actually the 3.5 Bard makes a pretty good Gandalf or Merlin, and the 2e one a just about passable one). The groups were self-separating (as many are).

I didn't get really heavily playing until the 80s myself. But the wizard = Gandalf or Merlin expectation was assumed to be true early on. Yes, people would play away from that type quite by design, all the time. But the foundation was well understood.

And from everything I've read right from the beginning the newbie expectation that the wizard = Gandalf or Merlin was well known. As was the sheer disappointment on behalf of many people when they found out that this simply didn't work mechanically. Until 4e the D&D wizard was first and foremost a gamist construct that in practice resembled nothing other than a D&D wizard (even "Vancian Magic" doesn't help the wizards behave at all like the wizards of Jack Vance).

Your comments on the differences between the mechanics and narrative are accepted without dispute from me. But the implication that Gandalf *could* have charmed someone was never a stretch. No one ever felt that an elf or archer could ONLY do those things that Legolas did and no one felt that a wizard could only do the things that Gandalf did. (Halfings tended to be vastly better thieves in D&D than Biblo, and Frodo was not really a thief at all). So the players "as Gandalf" would do the cool thing that they wanted Gandalf to do. And they would not get hung up on "Hey, Gandalf never actually did that." Pretty soon Fireball is the go-to spell. The perception over just a few months of play evolves from Gandalf could have done this to my Gandalf inspired magic-user does this all the time. The disconnect is there, and yet the understanding and satisfaction with that understanding and enjoyment of the game and *being Gandalf* was commonplace.

And here you are the one with a bubble. There were two separate groups of players - on the one hand were those happy to play an unashamedly gamist game and just wanted the excuse to dress their characters up as Gandalf. Those behaved as you describe. On the other hand there were the players who actually wanted to play as Gandalf rather than as Stock D&D Wizard #14 dressed as Gandalf. Those have all the problems [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] outlines and left D&D for other games that actually allowed them to get within hailing distance of the characters they wanted to play because Gandalf spamming fireballs is not Gandalf. It's not "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for that suit of armour makes a good roasting pan."

There's nothing wrong with wanting to play someone inspired by Gandalf and that wears Gandalf-like robes. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to play Gandalf. But pre-3e D&D only caters to the former group (unless you delve deep into 2e and specialist priests).
 

The problem here is a culture clash.
No, because I offered no dispute of this. I'm not challenging the idea. Again, I clearly supported it.

I challenged, correctly, the claim that this was "well discussed" and "most common".

And here you are the one with a bubble. There were two separate groups of players - on the one hand were those happy to play an unashamedly gamist game and just wanted the excuse to dress their characters up as Gandalf. Those behaved as you describe.
That is just a laughable attempt to play "I know you are but what am I?"

This has nothing to do with the conversation and I never claimed ANY group didn't exist. Which is something that can not be said for the point being challenged.

And clearly you are now just trying to change the subject. So I'll take that as admission that you can't offer anything on topic.

Thanks
 

No, because I offered no dispute of this. I'm not challenging the idea. Again, I clearly supported it.

I challenged, correctly, the claim that this was "well discussed" and "most common".

And I supported the well discussed case; it was being discussed as far back as Dragon #5 - with me linking a copy of the editorial about Gandalf being a fifth level wizard. Pemerton has cited White Dwarf. Every argument about realism and every statement Gygax made against realism was part of the discussion that D&D was written to be D&D and not much else. You can pretend they didn't happen all you like. But it was certainly discussed. Most common, you are right.

That is just a laughable attempt to play "I know you are but what am I?"

This has nothing to do with the conversation and I never claimed ANY group didn't exist. Which is something that can not be said for the point being challenged.

And clearly you are now just trying to change the subject. So I'll take that as admission that you can't offer anything on topic.

Thanks

This is just more of your standard schtick of "I know in the abstract that other gamers exist and I'm happy to make noises acknowledging this - but I don't want to know what they want, how, or why. And I'm going to duck any conversations that might possibly point out the advantages of other modes of play and even when such was extremely well discussed I'm going to ignore it.
 

This is just more of your standard schtick of "I know in the abstract that other gamers exist and I'm happy to make noises acknowledging this - but I don't want to know what they want, how, or why. And I'm going to duck any conversations that might possibly point out the advantages of other modes of play and even when such was extremely well discussed I'm going to ignore it.
Wow, the irony here is beyond belief.
Enjoy your games and delusions.
 

My brother in law would play Gandalf as a wizard, and claim to be smarter then the one in the book because he throws firballs...

Me, I'ld want to play him as a multi classed Invoker Swordmage, give him some good sword skill and some light based spells... and friends in high places, and low places...

My brother in law tried to play a character like Conan as a Barbarian, and never got it to feel like the books.

If I where playing Conan I would Multi the heck out of Warblade and Rogue...maybe some ranger

I am more concerned with what the character does, he is more concerned with what it says on the tin.

One of his big problems with 4e was he didn't want to play a ranger he wanted to play a fighter with a bow... and could not understand what is written on the sheet doesn't matter.
 

And from everything I've read right from the beginning the newbie expectation that the wizard = Gandalf or Merlin was well known. As was the sheer disappointment on behalf of many people when they found out that this simply didn't work mechanically. Until 4e the D&D wizard was first and foremost a gamist construct that in practice resembled nothing other than a D&D wizard (even "Vancian Magic" doesn't help the wizards behave at all like the wizards of Jack Vance).

Quite literally the only person I know who ever recognised the D&D Mage/Wizard was a comic-book fan who wanted to play a Doctor Strange style character. Everyone else who had an idea for a character that they thought would be a Mage found that the class didn't really play out that way. Including at least one person who knew the works of Jack Vance.

Conan is a fairly interesting persona, he's not a straight barbarian but definitely has the barbarian rage, he has been a thief although not one to use lockpicking he was able to use the athletic ability and stealth gained when in his homeland to great effect. He has joined mercenary bands and armies as a soldier and his strong force of personality has seen him rise as a leader of men. He had a fierce intellect and cunning and senses honed in his barbaric homeland. With armour, he would range from none to a chain shirt to platemail and his favoured weapon was the broadsword but he wasn't averse to beating a demon to death with whatever item of silver was at hand.

When you think about it, he was an excellent representation of an adventurer. He also rolled his stats and rolled really well.

A 2e Ranger was a decent model for Conan, or at least I thought so.
 

Conan is a fairly interesting persona, he's not a straight barbarian but definitely has the barbarian rage, he has been a thief although not one to use lockpicking he was able to use the athletic ability and stealth gained when in his homeland to great effect. He has joined mercenary bands and armies as a soldier and his strong force of personality has seen him rise as a leader of men. He had a fierce intellect and cunning and senses honed in his barbaric homeland. With armour, he would range from none to a chain shirt to platemail and his favoured weapon was the broadsword but he wasn't averse to beating a demon to death with whatever item of silver was at hand.

When you think about it, he was an excellent representation of an adventurer. He also rolled his stats and rolled really well.
you and I both see Conan very similarly... I bet you read Howard didn't you?

Truth be told D&D doesn't model MOST fiction well.
 

Truth be told D&D doesn't model MOST fiction well.
This is quite true.

RPGs are very much inspired by fiction. But the flow and blend of actions that are fun to read is quite different from what ends up being fun. You can generally take any given snapshot from an RPG and map it to a fictional moment. But if you took a photo album from one campaign, full of individually fiction-fitting stills, and flipped through it, it would be highly unlikely to come close to any feeling anything like an acceptable novel.
 

My brother in law would play Gandalf as a wizard, and claim to be smarter then the one in the book because he throws firballs...
Somewhere back on these boards Gygax himself said something to the effect that Gandalf was more like a Deva than a character. (or something in that general ballpark)
 

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