D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

My issue is that the fix you are proposing doesn't just buff low level wizards to counter their weakness (real or perceived), the fix you propose will buff wizards across all levels, even levels where they are not weak or are even considered quite powerful. Is it worth disrupting the class balance for the mid to high levels in order to address a class balance issue for the low levels, especially given that the XP charts are designed to rush you through those low levels so you can spend a higher proportion of your play time at the mid and high levels?

See the forest, not the trees. This rules alteration isn't just a buff to wizards with familiars; the larger implications are for general manipulations of the initiative order. For example, if you can manipulate the initiative order then Legendary Actions stop working as well: make all the melee guys go first so the dragon uses up its Legendary Actions on them, then the wizard(s) can freely Web the dragon without it using its "wing beat" action to fly free of the Web before the dragon's turn starts (thus obviating the need for a saving throw). Result: dragons are weaker relative to the party.

But it's not because of the familiar's Help.

 

[sithramir]

At least this is only a house rule since there is no delay. I'm glad its not a rule and agree it's too powerful.

The wizard can take their action or ready for the familiar. Why is it so horrible to get advantage on the 2nd round and not the 1st? You can still get it next round and just do another actions on the first round no? Why the need to do it every attack by house ruling initiative?

 

[KarinsDad]

At least this is only a house rule since there is no delay. I'm glad its not a rule and agree it's too powerful.

The wizard can take their action or ready for the familiar. Why is it so horrible to get advantage on the 2nd round and not the 1st? You can still get it next round and just do another actions on the first round no? Why the need to do it every attack by house ruling initiative?

I don't think that it is so much a need, as it is a desire. Once a DM adds the house rule, a player then feels that he has the right to use that house rule to his advantage every encounter.

And if you think about it, the normal tactic can be used almost every encounter anyway.

1) Familiar wins init. Familiar moves up and does Help. On Wizard's turn, Wizard moves to clear position and attacks.
2) Wizard wins init. Wizard moves to clear position and readies an attack for when Familiar Helps. Familiar moves up and does Help. Wizard's attack goes off.

So in reality, the normal rules allow every wizard to do this every round assuming that there are not circumstances hindering himself or his familiar. The main downside of doing it immediately via scenario #2 is that the wizard cannot move, attack, move (like he can in scenario 1) if he decides to do it at the first opportunity instead of waiting until the second round (which means that sometimes, he cannot get behind cover or concealment).

Personally, given the choice between having the ability to prevent foes from having inits between the familiar and the wizard by delaying until the end of the first round (and forcing the familiar to win init), and going earlier in initiative, I would often choose the latter.

 

[Zander]

See the forest, not the trees. This rules alteration isn't just a buff to wizards with familiars; the larger implications are for general manipulations of the initiative order. For example, if you can manipulate the initiative order then Legendary Actions stop working as well: make all the melee guys go first so the dragon uses up its Legendary Actions on them, then the wizard(s) can freely Web the dragon without it using its "wing beat" action to fly free of the Web before the dragon's turn starts (thus obviating the need for a saving throw). Result: dragons are weaker relative to the party.

The dragon could still use its legendary action to fly free. It would just need to hold back on using its legendary actions. It's exactly like the wizard rolling a low initiative. The same outcome can occur in the RAW, it's just a change in probability.

If a DM allows PCs to deliberately lose initiative, the DM can do it too. If for whatever reason the monster(s) wanted to come last in an encounter where the PCs all acted on their rolled initiative, that would be OK. What's sauce for the goose...

I don't think that it is so much a need, as it is a desire. Once a DM adds the house rule, a player then feels that he has the right to use that house rule to his advantage every encounter.

And if you think about it, the normal tactic can be used almost every encounter anyway.

1) Familiar wins init. Familiar moves up and does Help. On Wizard's turn, Wizard moves to clear position and attacks.
2) Wizard wins init. Wizard moves to clear position and readies an attack for when Familiar Helps. Familiar moves up and does Help. Wizard's attack goes off.

So in reality, the normal rules allow every wizard to do this every round assuming that there are not circumstances hindering himself or his familiar. The main downside of doing it immediately via scenario #2 is that the wizard cannot move, attack, move (like he can in scenario 1) if he decides to do it at the first opportunity instead of waiting until the second round (which means that sometimes, he cannot get behind cover or concealment).

Personally, given the choice between having the ability to prevent foes from having inits between the familiar and the wizard by delaying until the end of the first round (and forcing the familiar to win init), and going earlier in initiative, I would often choose the latter.

Yes, it could be used every encounter but in your scenario #1, the wizard probably wouldn't want to. My DM - and I think most DMs - doesn't allow Help to linger. It only grants advantage while it is being provided. So a familiar couldn't fly in, Help and fly out and then grant advantage to the wizard acting later in the round. To grant advantage, the familiar would need to stay close to the opponent after Helping which opens it up to melee attacks from the opponent.

Also, in your scenario #1, the Help might go to a PC attacking the opponent who acted before the wizard (unless the familiar readied Help) - another reason the wizard might not want to do it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, it could be used every encounter but in your scenario #1, the wizard probably wouldn't want to. My DM - and I think most DMs - doesn't allow Help to linger. It only grants advantage while it is being provided. So a familiar couldn't fly in, Help and fly out and then grant advantage to the wizard acting later in the round. To grant advantage, the familiar would need to stay close to the opponent after Helping which opens it up to melee attacks from the opponent.

Help absolutely lingers "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn" for upwards of an entire round.

A familiar could fly in, Help, and fly out, and nothing in the rules prevents the Help from lingering (the Owl flew into the face of the Orc, distracting it, and the Orc's attention in on the Owl as the Owl flies away). However, flying in and out would often result in an opportunity attack, so if the PC wants his familiar doing that, more power to him.

As a DM, I wouldn't rule that the Help does not linger, especially if the familiar has to provoke in order to accomplish both Help and fly away.

Edit: I went back and reread the Help moving away thread from the other week and people were pretty much split on this. So, your opinion that most DMs rule that way is probably not correct. Some DMs rule one way, some the other.

Also, in your scenario #1, the Help might go to a PC attacking the opponent who acted before the wizard (unless the familiar readied Help) - another reason the wizard might not want to do it.

It depends on how the DM adjudicates:

You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

This Help text strongly implies that the creature aiding has to indicate which ally he is helping.

Now, some DMs might allow the Help to work for any ally, but the text here does not imply "any ally". It implies "a specific ally" (or at least that's what I infer from the text).


Granted, an ally could come in and kill the foe, wasting the Help. But although the rules are not 100% explicit here, they do imply that the creature helping determines who he is helping.

 

[Zander]

Help absolutely lingers "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn" for upwards of an entire round.

A familiar could fly in, Help, and fly out, and nothing in the rules prevents the Help from lingering

Something in the rules certainly does prevent that: "you aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you." If the familiar is more than 5' away, it's no longer Helping.

...(the Owl flew into the face of the Orc, distracting it, and the Orc's attention in on the Owl as the Owl flies away). However, flying in and out would often result in an opportunity attack, so if the PC wants his familiar doing that, more power to him.

As a DM, I wouldn't rule that the Help does not linger, especially if the familiar has to provoke in order to accomplish both Help and fly away.

So if the familiar is an owl you would rule that Help doesn't linger because owls don't provoke when they move away, but Help from other familiars does linger because they provoke if they move away (regardless of whether they actually have or not)???

This Help text strongly implies that the creature aiding has to indicate which ally he is helping.

Now, some DMs might allow the Help to work for any ally, but the text here does not imply "any ally". It implies "a specific ally" (or at least that's what I infer from the text).


Granted, an ally could come in and kill the foe, wasting the Help. But although the rules are not 100% explicit here, they do imply that the creature helping determines who he is helping.

So according to you, a familiar can come in and Help and move away, and that Help would linger but still only come into effect for the ally specifically designated by the familiar even though it is nowhere near the opponent at the time that any of the allies acts? How does the familiar affect the Help after it has moved away from the opponent in order to pinpoint a specific ally? According to you: a familiar can move in, Help, and fly out; the opponent can then act (or react) killing the familiar; Azrolphus (PC wizard 1) can then cast Fire Bolt at the opponent without advantage because he wasn't the designated recipient of the Help; but Bramafax (PC wizard 2) does get advantage when he casts the same spell at the opponent because he was the designated 'helpee' - and all of this after the familiar is dead. How does that work?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The dragon could still use its legendary action to fly free. It would just need to hold back on using its legendary actions. It's exactly like the wizard rolling a low initiative. The same outcome can occur in the RAW, it's just a change in probability.

Sure, I know the dragon can hold back on Legendary Actions[1]. The salient point though is that under RAW, the party cannot force this situation to happen. As you note, it's a change in probabilities. Under RAW, the party simply has to hope that the wizard goes last. This rule change removes a possible failure mode from the equation.

The point is that the implications go far beyond familiar Help actions.

[1] Doesn't really matter though because of information asymmetry. The PCs know they've got a wizard planning to Web it. The dragon just sees a bunch of humans, some of them with swords. (Maybe all of them with swords, if the wizard is being sneaky about it.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A familiar could fly in, Help, and fly out, and nothing in the rules prevents the Help from lingering (the Owl flew into the face of the Orc, distracting it, and the Orc's attention in on the Owl as the Owl flies away). However, flying in and out would often result in an opportunity attack, so if the PC wants his familiar doing that, more power to him.

The reason people take Owls as familiars is that Owls have Flyby: they don't provoke opportunity attacks when retreating. (You may ask, "Why not?" I have no idea. Their snowy whiteness distracts enemies?)

 

[KarinsDad]

Something in the rules certainly does prevent that: "you aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you." If the familiar is more than 5' away, it's no longer Helping.

That's only one interpretation of those words. Many people interpret "you aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you" to mean that when the Help action is started, the helping creature has to be within 5 feet. Nothing explicitly in those words indicate that he has to stay there after performing the help action, or that the help action is a round long activity that ends if the helper is incapacitated.

Go read this thread.

Movement and Help

If you want to think that your interpretation is the only one, go ahead. It doesn't make it true.

So if the familiar is an owl you would rule that Help doesn't linger because owls don't provoke when they move away, but Help from other familiars does linger because they provoke if they move away (regardless of whether they actually have or not)???

If someone does not provoke with an Owl familiar over some other familiar, great. But, lingering works the same regardless. Or at least at my table.

So according to you, a familiar can come in and Help and move away, and that Help would linger but still only come into effect for the ally specifically designated by the familiar even though it is nowhere near the opponent at the time that any of the allies acts?

Yup. We are talking about a fantasy game. RAW (based on my interpretation) states that it works that way and it is not important enough to worry about or house rule, so that's what happens.

I can easily add color commentary to support this. "The weasel familiar barrels past the orc, partially climbing up his pant leg before moving on to pull the orc's attention away from the wizard. The orc swings at the weasel (rolls dice), misses, and keeps track of it, ignoring the wizard, but still focusing on the fighter.".

Course, there are other rules one could question, so why bother?

If this type of thing bothers you at your table, of course you are capable of interpreting and adjudicating it any way you like.

Personally, the action is called Help, not Distract. So, I am ok with Help helping one specific PC.

How does the familiar affect the Help after it has moved away from the opponent in order to pinpoint a specific ally? According to you: a familiar can move in, Help, and fly out; the opponent can then act (or react) killing the familiar; Azrolphus (PC wizard 1) can then cast Fire Bolt at the opponent without advantage because he wasn't the designated recipient of the Help; but Bramafax (PC wizard 2) does get advantage when he casts the same spell at the opponent because he was the designated 'helpee' - and all of this after the familiar is dead. How does that work?

Who cares? I play the game to have fun, not to worry about making sure every niggly little rule makes 100% sense 100% of the time.

 

[KarinsDad]

The reason people take Owls as familiars is that Owls have Flyby: they don't provoke opportunity attacks when retreating. (You may ask, "Why not?" I have no idea. Their snowy whiteness distracts enemies?)

Cool. The very fact that Owls have flyby should mean that the player should get opportunities (like Help) to use it.