D&D 5E Do you feel like the "Sorcerer" is really lacking in options?

[famousringo]

The wizard is the subtle, versatile one.

Actually, Sorcerer is the subtle one. It's right there in the metamagic section, and makes Sorcerer uniquely qualified to be the sneakmage. Even though the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is invisible, his spellcasting isn't.

Except there's no sorcerer subclass to actually support that, so you end up taking 3 levels of Rogue and mixing wizard and sorcerer spells for no reason except to get access to stealth skills and a versatile Mage Hand. Also, Sorcerers can't get Nondetection, so they can't actually sneak past somebody who has spells. Which is almost everybody. Not much of a sneakmage after all, I guess.

So one reason the Sorcerer feels limited is the chainsaw that WotC took to their spell list, but Elemental Evil grants them Maxillian's Earthen Grasp, Snilloc's Snowball, and Melf's Meteors. Is this a tacit admission by WotC that they were too harsh on the Sorcerer's spell list and the fact that somebody has their name on a spell isn't a good reason to keep it away from Sorcerers? Melf's Meteors are okay, but his Acid Arrows are not?

I find it hard to think of Sorcerer as the definitive blaster when so many great blasting spells are unavailable. Seems especially harsh when they want the dragon sorcerers to pick an element.

 

[Celebrim]

D&D for me has always approached the point where high level characters were effectively 'capes' or 'supers'. I always associate 'Sorcerer' as a class with the super-heroes that acquire strange magical powers because either they were born mutants or something mutated them. Converted to D&D, most of the Marvel Mutants strike me as sorcerers with particular shticks and very limited spell lists.

To convert easily from 3.X to 5e, I'd need support for all of the following blood origins: axiomatic, anarchic*, celestial, fiendish, draconic, fey**, shape-shifter**, fire, water**, air, cold, mentalist*, kineticist*, verminous, arachnid**, feral**, plant, necrotic**, aberrant.

*Origin has used by a past or present PC.
** Origin has been used by an NPC.

In addition to basic subclass features, I'd also need to see at least one feat exclusive to having each bloodline representing the 'mutant' version of each bloodline. And the current spell list is a bit too limited.

And yes, I did add Cold to the bloodline list specifically to allow a player to play Elsa, right after watching the movie***.

***The movie wasn't great, but Elsa as a 20th level ice sorcerer being tempted to change her alignment was.

 

[Moorcrys]

I think they erred a bit on the side of caution with sorcerers... But I like the class.

They limited the number of spells sorcerers can know, they narrowed their spell list from the wizard, they're limited by the number of sorcerer points they possess, and they are limited by the number of metamagic abilities they can take.

One thing I'm trying (don't know how it's gonna work out because no one has played a sorcerer yet) - I'm letting them add their Charisma modifier to the number of metamagic options they can choose from the beginning. Since they're limited in spell choice and by the number of points their sorcerer point pool, they might as well have maximum flexibility in how they manipulate the magic they do know... that's their schtick. I might just let them use any metamagic ability from the PHB from the beginning and be done with any limitations other than spell choice and sorcerer points. We'll see.

 

[TwoSix]

The movie wasn't great, but Elsa as a 20th level ice sorcerer being tempted to change her alignment was.

Trying to earn the undying enmity of millions of pre-teens, I see.

 

[Celebrim]

Trying to earn the undying enmity of millions of pre-teens, I see.

Oh no. I've got two of those, and I assure you that amongst the would be hip pre-teens, they are already too cool to admit to have ever liked 'Frozen' or 'Let it Go'. Hate and venom spew forth if you ever bring it up. I think the jump the shark moment at least locally was last years elementary school talent competition when like 7 girls sang 'Let it Go'.

Personally, I thought the movie started very well, but the last third was on multiple levels the weakest of just about any Disney movie. For example, it violated the traditional Disney movie precept that the villain must get what they deserve.

 

[TwoSix]

Oh no. I've got two of those, and I assure you that amongst the would be hip pre-teens, they are already too cool to admit to have ever liked 'Frozen' or 'Let it Go'. Hate and venom spew forth if you ever bring it up. I think the jump the shark moment at least locally was last years elementary school talent competition when like 7 girls sang 'Let it Go'.

Hmm, mine are only 8, and boys to boot, so I haven't seen it quite as much. The "Frozen" segment when we went to Disney on Ice certainly got the biggest reaction as well. Probably a difference between early elementary and later elementary to middle school kids, I imagine.

Personally, I thought the movie started very well, but the last third was on multiple levels the weakest of just about any Disney movie. For example, it violated the traditional Disney movie precept that the villain must get what they deserve.

Last third? One great song (Fixer Upper), a nice Olaf-Anna scene, and the confrontation on the frozen river were all very good, I thought. I liked the almost meta-commentary twist with familial love being the real power, rather than romantic love. And Hans got arrested and deported, which seems fairly deserved considering his attempt at a coup of a foreign power.

 

[MoonSong]

I'm just confused at this point. Essentially wizards ARE sorcerers with Int subbed for Cha in casting. Ask a person on the streets and they won't know the difference. What makes a wizard so unpalatable? You aren't required to have a beard, pointy hat and robe.

This single change is what breaks it for me, just because the wizard is more sorcerer-like doesn't mean the sorcerer is not needed anymore. The wizard still can't be a focused niche caster and be credible at it. And the story of the wizard is still so limited. On top of it, the wizard still represents a scientific approach to magic that just rubs me the wrong way. And it being the proverbial square peg in the round hole by claiming to be the generic caster when in truth is far from it doesn't help matters.

Well times change and so do classes. The 3.0 sorc was so blandly undifferentiated from the wizard I felt it was a waste of space (not to mention just flat out weaker).

You called it blandly undifferentiated, I call it more open. What few people want to admit is that the 3e sorcerer made -conceptually - the wizard completely redundant. You could ban the 3e wizard and still have the same stories and the same PCs, but it cannot be done in reverse.

The 5E sorcerer is essentially the blast caster. They nova like no one else with twin, quicken, etc. Better pick spells that scale well too, because you only get a few of em. That is the design space of the class.

The wizard is the subtle, versatile one. I'd argue the wizard class is more or less a slightly upgraded 3.0 sorcerer with more spells and some bonuses. Swap Cha for Int as your casting, refluff your spellbook as bloodline powers and I really can't see what else you'd want.

Pick the class that matches your style, and refluff from there.

Could the class use a generalist subclass that focused more on metamagic? Sure. Is the class broken or poorly designed? I really don't think so.

Refflufing and houserules don't help in here. You cannot assume I've got access to a certain houserule, and if you could I'd rather convince a DM to allow the BG sorcerer on a 2e game.

Actually, Sorcerer is the subtle one. It's right there in the metamagic section, and makes Sorcerer uniquely qualified to be the sneakmage. Even though the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is invisible, his spellcasting isn't.

Except there's no sorcerer subclass to actually support that, so you end up taking 3 levels of Rogue and mixing wizard and sorcerer spells for no reason except to get access to stealth skills and a versatile Mage Hand. Also, Sorcerers can't get Nondetection, so they can't actually sneak past somebody who has spells. Which is almost everybody. Not much of a sneakmage after all, I guess.

So one reason the Sorcerer feels limited is the chainsaw that WotC took to their spell list, but Elemental Evil grants them Maxillian's Earthen Grasp, Snilloc's Snowball, and Melf's Meteors. Is this a tacit admission by WotC that they were too harsh on the Sorcerer's spell list and the fact that somebody has their name on a spell isn't a good reason to keep it away from Sorcerers? Melf's Meteors are okay, but his Acid Arrows are not?

I find it hard to think of Sorcerer as the definitive blaster when so many great blasting spells are unavailable. Seems especially harsh when they want the dragon sorcerers to pick an element.

Yes, the named spells thing was harsh. And for blasting, warlocks and wizards can still be blasters and run with it. Limiting sorcerers on the niches they could occupy was uncalled for.

Oh no. I've got two of those, and I assure you that amongst the would be hip pre-teens, they are already too cool to admit to have ever liked 'Frozen' or 'Let it Go'. Hate and venom spew forth if you ever bring it up. I think the jump the shark moment at least locally was last years elementary school talent competition when like 7 girls sang 'Let it Go'.

Personally, I thought the movie started very well, but the last third was on multiple levels the weakest of just about any Disney movie. For example, it violated the traditional Disney movie precept that the villain must get what they deserve.

I just know that just like Elsa is popular today, Sabrina was in the 90's, they don't fit in the wizard class, but are at home under the sorcerer. if only an Elsa build were supported by the current edition D&D would have an explosion of new blood, I don't get the refusal to allow those kinds of PCs, is it because they are female characters that are most obviously outside the D&D wizard ? is there a misogynist assumption that they have to be excluded or something?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Actually, Sorcerer is the subtle one. It's right there in the metamagic section, and makes Sorcerer uniquely qualified to be the sneakmage. Even though the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is invisible, his spellcasting isn't.

Except there's no sorcerer subclass to actually support that, so you end up taking 3 levels of Rogue and mixing wizard and sorcerer spells for no reason except to get access to stealth skills and a versatile Mage Hand. Also, Sorcerers can't get Nondetection, so they can't actually sneak past somebody who has spells. Which is almost everybody. Not much of a sneakmage after all, I guess.

So one reason the Sorcerer feels limited is the chainsaw that WotC took to their spell list, but Elemental Evil grants them Maxillian's Earthen Grasp, Snilloc's Snowball, and Melf's Meteors. Is this a tacit admission by WotC that they were too harsh on the Sorcerer's spell list and the fact that somebody has their name on a spell isn't a good reason to keep it away from Sorcerers? Melf's Meteors are okay, but his Acid Arrows are not?

I find it hard to think of Sorcerer as the definitive blaster when so many great blasting spells are unavailable. Seems especially harsh when they want the dragon sorcerers to pick an element.

I stand by this. The wizard's spell list is more expansive and includes more varied effects. The wizard has subclasses with more subtle effects than the dragon and wild mage. Yeah, sorcs get silent spell, that's pretty minor in the feel of the class when it comes to the effects you can produce.

 

[Celebrim]

Last third? One great song (Fixer Upper), a nice Olaf-Anna scene, and the confrontation on the frozen river were all very good, I thought.

The Olaf-Anna scene was pretty good, and I did like that familial love was love and the focus on the relationship between the sisters... I just think that they staged that badly. Compare with 'Tangled', which neatly resolves all the dangling relationships that have been driving the conflict, 'Frozen' does it's thread tying together quite weakly with very little reference to what's gone before and a magical technobabble explanation for the reversing of the death of Anna that doesn't quite come off. Yes, obviously, it was always going to be the love between the sisters that was the resolution of the stories primary conflict, but it not only appears to come seconds too late, but the act of love and sacrifice goes in the wrong direction. It's a strange thing indeed that Anna's own act of love can thaw herself, and if isn't her act by Elsa's reciprocal feeling then isn't it a bit too late for that now that she's dead?

Forget 'Tangled'. Try the underrated 'Wreck it Ralph'. Again, we have an ending where all the elements of the ending have been properly foreshadowed and all play a role in tying up all the loose relationship threads that have been driving the conflict.

'Frozen' by comparison seems terribly contrived and weak, with emotional peaks that have occurred much earlier in the story. We are deprived of a proper cathartic epiphany, and left with a story where tragedy seems a more appropriate means of tying up the story.

I can honestly say I have no memory of 'fixer upper'.

And Hans got arrested and deported, which seems fairly deserved considering his attempt at a coup of a foreign power.

Hans "coup" was among other acts of villainy an attempt to kill both sisters, with one plot amounting to death by slow torture. I'd say he was by the count of 2 to 1, rather more wicked than the wicked Queen in 'Snow White'. Worse, because we haven't established before hand in any way Hans behavior would be treated as disgraceful by his family (even by for example, establishing at Hans is afraid of his parents and of a very different character), we are left to wonder whether or not he's going to be punished at all. It's quite possible that he comes from a family of self-centered villainous types, and has indulgent parents quick to excuse any excess their 'boys' engage in whatsoever.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Actually, Sorcerer is the subtle one. It's right there in the metamagic section, and makes Sorcerer uniquely qualified to be the sneakmage. Even though the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is invisible, his spellcasting isn't.

I have had some weird sessions with very few players/characters. One of those session only had two players, one playing a sorcerer and the other a rogue. This showcased the flexibility of the sorcerer, as the player could use metamagic to cast his sleep spell silently after the rogue had scouted out the area. He could also boost the sleep spell depending on the dice rolls, so it was much more likely to succeed.

In short, I think the metamagic the sorcerer gets is awesome and that the flexibility it grants should not be underrated.