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D&D 5E Do you feel like the "Sorcerer" is really lacking in options?

Anyone who wanted to could play this, yesterday, as is. Make a dragon sorcerer, take all the dragon fluff out, put stormy fluff in. Element affinity for lightning. The 6th level ability is just flying via controlled/summoned winds instead of dragon-wing transformation. It's...absolutely trivial to have this kind of sorcerer if you want it.

That is pretty much what I figured and that sounds like it would do the trick. 5e's PC build rules are quite robust and while you have to be a savvy about how certain refluffing might intersect with specific aspects of the resolution mechanics (eg Concentration), there is certainly room for it.
 

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Falling Icicle

Adventurer
The sorcerer only has two subclasses, so it could definitely use more. Its spell list also heavily favors blasting, but offers far less support for other character concepts. I hope both of those things are addressed in the future.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
"The Sorcerer spell list forces it into being mainly a blaster" is a myth. The Sorcerer has many enchantments, illusions, conjuration, and transmutations. It's weakest aspect are wards via abjurations and summons via conjuration and necromancy.

At level 5, a sorcerer has 5 cantrips, 6 spells known, 2 metamagics, ad 5 sorcery points. You can make a powerful Charmer Sorcerer with that.

Cantrips: Friends + 4 other spells
Spells: Charm Person, Sleep, Hold Person, + any three attack spells.
Metamagic: Heighten + 1 other

You have a guy who can guarantee a Charm or Hold Person. Snag Empower spell for blasting or Subtle spells for trickery. Later levels allow for Power Word and Dominate spells. Perfect for a mage with fey blood or a changeling.


The real issue is out of this 2 subclasses and 8 metamagics, only 1 class feature and 1 metamagic affect saving throws and only 1 metamagic affects durations.

No widen spell
No repeat spell
No invisible spell
No delay spell
No deceptive spell
No spending sorcery points to reroll concentration.
No other permanent 3rd level buff spell effect
On buff extension is double duration

That's the issue.
The spell list says you can be a blaster, charmer, trickster, countermage, or buffer.
The subclasses say "flying blaster" and "wacky things".
The metamagics say "different flavors of blaster" mostly.

All these enchantments. Almost not support. Shame. Literally a Charisma class.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
"The Sorcerer spell list forces it into being mainly a blaster" is a myth. The Sorcerer has many enchantments, illusions, conjuration, and transmutations. It's weakest aspect are wards via abjurations and summons via conjuration and necromancy.

At level 5, a sorcerer has 5 cantrips, 6 spells known, 2 metamagics, ad 5 sorcery points. You can make a powerful Charmer Sorcerer with that.

Cantrips: Friends + 4 other spells
Spells: Charm Person, Sleep, Hold Person, + any three attack spells.
Metamagic: Heighten + 1 other

You have a guy who can guarantee a Charm or Hold Person. Snag Empower spell for blasting or Subtle spells for trickery. Later levels allow for Power Word and Dominate spells. Perfect for a mage with fey blood or a changeling.


The real issue is out of this 2 subclasses and 8 metamagics, only 1 class feature and 1 metamagic affect saving throws and only 1 metamagic affects durations.

No widen spell
No repeat spell
No invisible spell
No delay spell
No deceptive spell
No spending sorcery points to reroll concentration.
No other permanent 3rd level buff spell effect
On buff extension is double duration

That's the issue.
The spell list says you can be a blaster, charmer, trickster, countermage, or buffer.
The subclasses say "flying blaster" and "wacky things".
The metamagics say "different flavors of blaster" mostly.

All these enchantments. Almost not support. Shame. Literally a Charisma class.

Well said, subclasses are sorely missing, we need a subclass for the thieving wilder, one for seducing enchantress, and one for the gishy peasant.

However there are many things I miss: Talking raven pets, shadow ponies and invisible servants, flying disks and environment shaping effects. I was born with magic and cannot use it for anything constructive?
 

Riley37

First Post
However there are many things I miss: Talking raven pets, shadow ponies and invisible servants, flying disks and environment shaping effects. I was born with magic and cannot use it for anything constructive?

That actually makes sense to me. As a sorceror, you get what you were born with. If you were, instead, a member of a tradition which had spent generations - centuries? - inventing and refining magic *by means of intellect*, then you would have all the spells which wizards had, over time, developed with the conscious intent of making life easier.

Wizards have spellbooks, which are the magical equivalent of "there's an app for that". When one wizard invents a practical spell, and it's notably useful, then copying from one spellbook to another may ensue, and the more-practical spells may get copied faster and farther than the others. Sorcererors don't have those options. If Wild Magic decides to emerge as "Detect Self" or "Transmute Mead to Ale", then that's all you get. Tough luck.

On another hand, here's a metamagic which might give sorcerors an advantage: how about a metamagic for additional Concentration? If Sorcerors could use metamagic to run two simultaneous Concentration spells, then they'd suddenly get a bag of possible synergies which are unavailable to wizards. Well, when I say "a bag", I mean the combinations of self-only Concentration spells. All the other Concentration combinations remain available to wizards, so long as a team of wizards are willing to cooperate and each Concentrate on one spell.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
That actually makes sense to me. As a sorceror, you get what you were born with. If you were, instead, a member of a tradition which had spent generations - centuries? - inventing and refining magic *by means of intellect*, then you would have all the spells which wizards had, over time, developed with the conscious intent of making life easier.

Wizards have spellbooks, which are the magical equivalent of "there's an app for that". When one wizard invents a practical spell, and it's notably useful, then copying from one spellbook to another may ensue, and the more-practical spells may get copied faster and farther than the others. Sorcererors don't have those options. If Wild Magic decides to emerge as "Detect Self" or "Transmute Mead to Ale", then that's all you get. Tough luck.

On another hand, here's a metamagic which might give sorcerors an advantage: how about a metamagic for additional Concentration? If Sorcerors could use metamagic to run two simultaneous Concentration spells, then they'd suddenly get a bag of possible synergies which are unavailable to wizards. Well, when I say "a bag", I mean the combinations of self-only Concentration spells. All the other Concentration combinations remain available to wizards, so long as a team of wizards are willing to cooperate and each Concentrate on one spell.

But on the other hand, a wizard in his Ivory tower will be too disconnected from the real world's everyday necessities to create truly useful spells while a sorceress who works as a seamstress will -over time- develop ways to do it with her magic -which is as natural to her as it is using an arm and thus an extension and reflection of her nature and inclinations-, those ways won't be easy to copy and paste, but will indeed be more suited to the task -dressmaking in this case-, while a sorcerer who is a farmer will develop ways to be a better farmer, a sorcerer who is into conning people will develop ways to use his magic to con better and not being caught and so on. And if magic is still entirely inborn, why wouldn't it develop into useful forms over time by mere natural selection?, the sorcerers born with the best spells for their livelihood would be more successful and have more kids who in turn are better at it eventually ending up with spells as useful -if not more- for everyday life.
 

famousringo

First Post
On another hand, here's a metamagic which might give sorcerors an advantage: how about a metamagic for additional Concentration? If Sorcerors could use metamagic to run two simultaneous Concentration spells, then they'd suddenly get a bag of possible synergies which are unavailable to wizards. Well, when I say "a bag", I mean the combinations of self-only Concentration spells. All the other Concentration combinations remain available to wizards, so long as a team of wizards are willing to cooperate and each Concentrate on one spell.

Sorcerers are basically already able to maintain two spells using Twin Spell, so something along these lines isn't out of the question.

I'll note that one of the reasons the sorcerer spell list is so constrained is for fear that some spells are just way too powerful if they can be Twinned (or Heightened, or... wait, those are the only truly powerful class features :p).

So we risk a perverse situation where the more metamagic options the sorcerer gets, the more the sorcerer spell list needs to be gutted to maintain game balance. So goodbye Investiture spells because we can't have sorcerers walking around with stoneskin and fire shield throwing Aganazzar's Scorchers at will while he walks through walls.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Sorcerers are basically already able to maintain two spells using Twin Spell, so something along these lines isn't out of the question.

I'll note that one of the reasons the sorcerer spell list is so constrained is for fear that some spells are just way too powerful if they can be Twinned (or Heightened, or... wait, those are the only truly powerful class features :p).

So we risk a perverse situation where the more metamagic options the sorcerer gets, the more the sorcerer spell list needs to be gutted to maintain game balance. So goodbye Investiture spells because we can't have sorcerers walking around with stoneskin and fire shield throwing Aganazzar's Scorchers at will while he walks through walls.

Not really...

The main spells sorcerers don't get that wizards do are

1) Conjuration Summons
2) Necromancy Summons.
3) many abjurations
4) utility spells

So it's feels that they were afraid of sorcerers messing with the numbers of utility spells and summons and having 24hr buffs while summoning dragons by screwing with numbers.
 

Schmoe

Adventurer
What if, just as the wizard can recover half their level in spell slots once per day during a short rest, the sorcerer could recover half their level in sorcery points?

Well, that might help some, sure. Up to this point I haven't really had an opportunity to explain why I think the sorcerer is a second-class caster compared to the wizard, so I'll try to do so now. First, I'm assuming that a Sorcerous Origin is roughly equivalent to an Arcane Tradition. I don't want to go into the specific origins except to say that I think they are pretty narrow, but really whether one appeals to you or not is a matter of preference. So that leaves the basic class features for comparison.

Both classes have the exact same spell progression and slots per day. However, the Wizard recovers half of his level in spell levels once per day, so this is actually an advantage to the wizard. The wizard will be casting more spells per day than a sorcerer.

In terms of spells known, a wizard has a tremendous advantage. Wizards have access to every spell that a sorcerer does, plus many more. Wizards can also have every possible wizard spell in their spell books, whereas a sorcerer only has 15 spells known, ever. That's roughly 2 spells per spell level. In addition, wizards can cast rituals, which sorcerers cannot do. The number of spells that a wizard casts, and the variety of those spells, far outshines anything a sorcerer might be able to do. The sorcerer does know one extra cantrip, but, eh, I'm not sure how much that really matters.

So what does the sorcerer get in return for crippled access to spells? Sorcery points. These sorcery points can be used for one of two things: to recover spell slots or for using metamagic. Using sorcery points to recover spell slots is actually slightly better for recovering high level spell slots than Arcane Recovery is for a wizard, so in theory a high level sorcerer could get a very slight advantage in number of spells during a day than a wizard. Of course, this is at the cost of slashing the sorcerer's number of spells known and choosing from a stunted list of spells available, and even then the wizard can still cast any number of rituals, against which the sorcerer can never compete. Based on that, using sorcery points is generally a terrible option.

Metamagic must be the equalizer. However, you start with only two options for metamagic, and you don't get another option until 10th level. The most "twists" you'll ever have is 4. You have one sorcery point per level, and you generally have between 1 to 1.5 spell slots per level. So if you choose a metamagic such as Careful Spell, Distant Spell, Empowered Spell, or Subtle Spell, you can pretty much use one of those options on nearly every spell you cast. Unfortunately, since you only start with two choices of metamagic, if you do that, you've essentially said that you want to impose all of the spell selection limitations on yourself just so that you can cast all of your spells silently, or extended, or whatever you chose. If you really want to be a blaster, Empowered might fit the bill here. I don't recall the math, but I think being able to re-roll a die increases the average result for the die by about 1, so Empowered effectively grants you +Cha to any damaging spell - not bad, if you really, really want to be a blaster and nothing else.

For sure, some of the other metamagic options provide some neat abilities. Quicken is pretty nice, for a reasonable cost in Sorcery points, and Heightened Spell can be useful when trying to get a key spell to stick. But the problem is, you can only choose a scant number of these options. If you choose Heighten Spell, don't count on using it more than once per day until 6th level, and don't count on using your other metamagic much on the days when you use Heighten. If you choose Careful Spell, how often is that really going to be useful, and with how many spells?

And that's the crux of the problem. The sorcerer sacrifices so much in terms of spell casting variety and spell casting frequency in return for an extremely narrow and limited set of tools that he can use via Sorcery Points.

So what would I like to see from the sorcerer? Honestly I would have preferred a different casting mechanic altogether so that the sorcerer doesn't seem like just a mentally challenged wizard who only prepares a handful of blasting spells every day, but it's too late for that. Other than that I'm not sure, but the proposal to allow recovery of Sorcery Points might not be a bad idea. Access to more Metamagic options, or even all of the options from the start, might be another idea. Allowing the sorcerer to really focus on what makes him different than a wizard (altering spells) rather than just dabbling in it would do the most at this point to not only differentiate the sorcerer, but also give the class its own space to shine.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
For something like that, I would say, keep the 2 metamagics at 3rd level, and just add that they can choose another metamagic "trick/stunt" every other or every 3rd level after.

So instead of getting a 3rd option at 10th, you'll already have [at every 3rd level] 4 possible metamagic tricks up your sleeve and get a 5th at 12th level, etc...

I wouldn't even change the Spell Point mechanic and now you have some serious choices to make as to how and when you apply metamagic. The options feel like they'll matter more. And the Sorcerer becomes, not the blaster caster, but what I think they were shooting for [and just missed] as the metamagic caster...the guy who can do stuff with his magic that other guys can't.
 

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