D&D 5E Dual wielding and improvised weapons. Technically broken?

[Saeviomagy]

Does it make sense to hit someone with a shield? Yes.

Does hitting someone with your shield make it more likely they would be able to hit you? Maybe, maybe not.

Is this combo unbalanced mechanically speaking if you still get the ac? Getting +1 ac on top of a shield has some potential to be too good in that it stretches the bounds of accuracy, but I don't think it's that big a deal.

So I'd allow it. It doesn't seem as good as other options for a shield wielder.

 

[Psikerlord#]

That's how i would rule it.

Me too. Because you're not using it as a shield anymore, you're using it as a weapon.

 

[Zaruthustran]

This combo has been discussed at length on this forum in 2014. The big hiccup is that the Dual Wielder feat requires weapons. A shield is not a weapon. So, it doesn't work with Dual Wielder.

Of course, you can use a shield (or a leg of lamb, or carrot) as an improvised weapon. From a rules perspective, such use does not transform those objects into what the rules consider a "weapon." They're still objects.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...the-AC-bonus&p=6431334&viewfull=1#post6431334

 

[Mistwell]

This combo has been discussed at length on this forum in 2014. The big hiccup is that the Dual Wielder feat requires weapons. A shield is not a weapon. So, it doesn't work with Dual Wielder.

Of course, you can use a shield (or a leg of lamb, or carrot) as an improvised weapon. From a rules perspective, such use does not transform those objects into what the rules consider a "weapon." They're still objects.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...the-AC-bonus&p=6431334&viewfull=1#post6431334

At the point where the guy who drafted the rules you're citing disagrees with you, I am gonna go with the guy who drafted those rules.

 

[Flamestrike]

So...you're spending two whole feats to have an AC 1 point better than a normal sword and board fighter, and the ability to deal a (1d4+strength) damage shield bash (eating your bonus action) on your turn?

How are people seeing that as broken?

By way of comparison, a Dex/finesse fighter could simply use those 2 feats/ASI's to increase Dex by +2 and take TWF feat to use 2 rapiers. He also gets +1 to AC (and to his Dex skills, initiative and saves) +1 to hit, and +1 to damage (on both attacks) while doing 1d8 + Dex damage with a bonus action in his off hand.

Lets compare optimized characters, default array, both V Human Fighter (champion) 4 (TWF style).

Captn merca:
S: 17
D: 14
C: 14
I: 8
W: 12
Ch: 10

Scale
Shield
Longsword
2Handaxes

Init: +2
HP: 36
AC: 19
Melee: +5 (1d8+3)
Off hand: +5 (1d4+3)
Ranged: +5 (1d6+3)

Brizzt Bo'urdn
S: 14
D: 18
C: 14
I: 8
W: 12
Ch: 10

Studded leather
2 rapiers
Longbow and arrows

Init: +4
HP: 36
AC: 17
Melee: +6 (1d8+4)
Off hand: +6 (1d8+4)
Ranged: +6 (1d8+4)

Can someone explain how option 1 (Shield bash and TWF) looks broken here? The Dex fighter goes first, hits more often, has better dex saves, is better with ranged attacks, and deals much more DPR. The Shield Bash/ TWF Fighter has a better AC by two points, but sacrifices speed, AC accuracy, agility and DPR to get those extra 2 points of AC.

Seems entirely balanced to me.

 

[SkidAce]

A shield is attached via depending on the model, a forearm strap and a handle or secondary strap of some sort, or just the 'handle'. It is most definitely in your hand though, otherwise you would have very limited control over it (even as a purely defensive item).
Also, a shield can bash you coming straight on at you, thus in no way negating it's ability to be in the way and thus help your ac. A shield bash isn't necessarily a swinging bash but can easily be a frontal shove.

+ XP for this.

Look at many of the pictures of shield use you can google. Mainly they have their arm through a strap, and are holding on to a handle. i.e. in their hand.

 

[Paraxis]

So lets assume a Human(variant) array fighter 6th level. Important ability scores Str & Con start at 16's.

Build 1. (Sword & Board - Dual Wielder)
Feats: dual wielder, tavern brawler, ability score increase 18 strength.
Fighting Style: two-weapon fighting
Attack action: 2 attacks +7 hit, d8+4 damage each
Bonus action: shield attack +7 hit, 1d4+4 damage
AC: 19 (16 +2 +1) chainmail + shield + feat


Build 2. (Two Weapon Fighter)
Feats: dual wielder, ability score increase x2 for 20 strength.
Fighting Style: two-weapon fighting
Attack action: 2 attacks +8 hit, d8+5 damage each
Bonus action: sword attack +8 hit, d8+5 damage
AC: 17 (16 +1) chainmail + feat

Build 3. (Shield Master)
Feats: shield master, ability score increase 20 strength
Fighting style: defense
Attack action: 2 attacks +8 hit, d8+5 damage (most likely made with advantage)
Bonus action: shove attack that if successful gives both of your attacks and any allies attacking target in melee before it goes advantage.
AC: 19 (16 +2 +1) chainmail + shield + fighting style

Build 4. (Stick Beater)
Feats: polearm master, ability score increase 20 strength
Fighting style: dueling
Attack action: 2 attacks +8 to hit, d6+7 damage (staff used one handed d6 +2 fighting style)
Bonus action: attack with staff +8 hit, d4+7 damage
Most likely a reaction attack every now and then for a +8 hit, d6+7 damage
AC: 18 (16 +2) chainmail + shield

I guess what I am getting at is that while the first build and what this thread is discussing is interesting and a good build for a character, there are other great options. Doing the two-weapon fighting thing with the shield has the cost of other options, it basically takes 2 feats to work duel wielding and tavern brawler, there are other ways to get a bonus action attack and gaining your strength modifier to damage, and the shield master feat is very nice even if the shove attack doesn't do damage.

 

[Flamestrike]

So lets assume a Human(variant) array fighter 6th level. Important ability scores Str & Con start at 16's.

Build 1. (Sword & Board - Dual Wielder)
Feats: dual wielder, tavern brawler, ability score increase 18 strength.
Fighting Style: two-weapon fighting
Attack action: 2 attacks +7 hit, d8+4 damage each
Bonus action: shield attack +7 hit, 1d4+4 damage
AC: 19 (16 +2 +1) chainmail + shield + feat


Build 2. (Two Weapon Fighter)
Feats: dual wielder, ability score increase x2 for 20 strength.
Fighting Style: two-weapon fighting
Attack action: 2 attacks +8 hit, d8+5 damage each
Bonus action: sword attack +8 hit, d8+5 damage
AC: 17 (16 +1) chainmail + feat

Build 3. (Shield Master)
Feats: shield master, ability score increase 20 strength
Fighting style: defense
Attack action: 2 attacks +8 hit, d8+5 damage (most likely made with advantage)
Bonus action: shove attack that if successful gives both of your attacks and any allies attacking target in melee before it goes advantage.
AC: 19 (16 +2 +1) chainmail + shield + fighting style

Build 4. (Stick Beater)
Feats: polearm master, ability score increase 20 strength
Fighting style: dueling
Attack action: 2 attacks +8 to hit, d6+7 damage (staff used one handed d6 +2 fighting style)
Bonus action: attack with staff +8 hit, d4+7 damage
Most likely a reaction attack every now and then for a +8 hit, d6+7 damage
AC: 18 (16 +2) chainmail + shield

I guess what I am getting at is that while the first build and what this thread is discussing is interesting and a good build for a character, there are other great options. Doing the two-weapon fighting thing with the shield has the cost of other options, it basically takes 2 feats to work duel wielding and tavern brawler, there are other ways to get a bonus action attack and gaining your strength modifier to damage, and the shield master feat is very nice even if the shove attack doesn't do damage.

Yeah, I did similar above. In no way is it broken compared to any other optimized fighter build at the appropriate level.

I'd totally allow it.

In fact I am beginning to think it is totally sub-optimal. Improvised weapons are not light weapons, so you need the TWM feat to allow the bonus attack w the shield at all. In a nutshell you need (TWF) fighting style (to add str to damage), TWF feat (to allow you to even make the attack with a shield in the first place) and grant a +1 to AC, and Tavern Brawler (to allow proficiency in improvised weapons, and grant the bonus attack).

A conventional sword (rapier) and board fighter with shield master feat, +2 Dexterity and dueling FS (similar investment) will deal more DPR, hit more often, and have the exact same AC (and much better defensive abilities to boot).

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Not to do with the maximising the PC side, but regarding shields being used as a weapon and then not being able to grant bonus to AC: a D&D combat round consists of six seconds of activity that includes feints, parries, dodges, swings, misses, hits, blocks etc. I see no reason why in that timeframe Person A couldn't swing a sword and bash (even an open the body up swing to the left bash) and re-close their guard before Person B attacks them in their turn, thus allowing Person A the shield bonus to AC.

Now, regards maximal feats to choose, I'd leave that to others more qualified. But the pedant in me has to point out that in D&D your combat turn is assumed to comprise more than just a simple straightforward swing (or swings) of your weapon(s).

This comes out of the whole Hit Point rationale of it comprising your ability to dodge, weave, block and parry blows aimed at you, as well as your physical ability to withstand damage and exhaustion.

That's how I see/play/describe it anyway.

Now, Inner Pedant, go back to sleep. Shush now. Have some raw grammar mistakes to chew on. Good boy. Shh.

 

[Mercule]

My wife is playing a dual-wielding, wood elf Battle Master. She started off doing shield and rapier, with my rulings pretty well lining up with Crawford's (improving weapon, etc.).

Because the shield isn't finesse, it was definitely sub-optimal for her. Based on that experience, though, I'm quite comfortable in saying it would be functional, though not overpowered, for a strength-based dual-wielding Fighter. You'd have to take a couple of feats to really get it to work really well. At that point, you've already self-balanced by exchanging stats or other feats.

Do not worry about the shield bash. It's not going to break your game. If you have a player who manages to use it to break your game, said player will find another way to break your game, anyway.