Good to know. I think it is in line with my findings. Bounded Accuracy makes it so that you need a 9 or less to hit more often as you get higher in level.
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D&D 5E Creative solutions to the hypothetical GWF/Sharpshooter issue
- Thread starter Mouseferatu
- Start date
Good to know. I think it is in line with my findings. Bounded Accuracy makes it so that you need a 9 or less to hit more often as you get higher in level.
Changing the feat. emdw45 pointed out allowing the use of a shield with the feat made it far more attractive than GWM. He is right. I changed the feat to eliminate the ability to use a shield with the feat. I want it on par with GWM and Sharpshooter for Duelist Style and TWF martials, I don't want it better. That would make everyone choose to use dueling style with a shield.
Here is the new feat:
Dueling Mastery: You have learned an aggressive fighting style capable of delivering deadly strikes to vital areas.
When wielding a one-handed melee weapon in one-hand and not utilizing a shield, you can strike a vital area on your opponent taking a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If you hit, the attack does +10 damage.
If you score a critical hit while wielding a one-handed melee weapon in one hand, you do an extra weapon die of damage.
I eliminated the ability to use a shield with the feat. That should put it on par with GWM and Sharpshooter (maybe not quite as good as SS only because ranged attacking is so good in this game due to the way movement works).
Here is the new feat:
Dueling Mastery: You have learned an aggressive fighting style capable of delivering deadly strikes to vital areas.
When wielding a one-handed melee weapon in one-hand and not utilizing a shield, you can strike a vital area on your opponent taking a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If you hit, the attack does +10 damage.
If you score a critical hit while wielding a one-handed melee weapon in one hand, you do an extra weapon die of damage.
I eliminated the ability to use a shield with the feat. That should put it on par with GWM and Sharpshooter (maybe not quite as good as SS only because ranged attacking is so good in this game due to the way movement works).
Mouseferatu
Hero
I'm not a fan of using a melee fighting style to modify spell-related stuff, I'm afraid. And I've seen lots of characters using a single one-handed weapon. Rogues, archery-focused rangers when they're in melee, blade-pact warlocks, or anyone who just wants to play a fighter in a swashbuckle-y style.
Fighting styles are already pretty narrow; I wouldn't want to further restrict it to only people of a martial/magical combination build.
I like this approach, but it's still a matter of deciding what "balanced" means. As others have pointed out, as a rule of thumb/on average, dealing more damage is better than an AC bump. So high does an AC bump or other defense have to be before that's balanced? Ask five people in this thread, you'll get seven different answers.
I mean, is Shield Master balanced with GWM? I think so. I think the combat options it offers, when combined with the defensive bonuses, make it equally attractive (depending on character concept, of course). But others don't agree. Is Dual-Wielder? Well... Probably not, no. Adding a second off-hand attack might not seem like much--look at the monk--but it has some repercussions. Rogues suddenly have yet another shot at SA damage. And combined with the "can use non-light weapons" benefit, it starts to look a little broken.
I don't really have a conclusion I'm working toward here. Just saying, I agree with you that looking back can help with some ideas, and that you can have "balance" without everything being identical. It's just a tough balance point to find.
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
I can understand not being a fan of it, but spells aren't the only thing that uses DCs. Every character you listed (aside of the archer who is fighting outside of their niche and shouldn't count because they aren't going to spend a feat for that) benefits thematically from a bonus to save DCs, even the Rogue. Remember, maneuvers, poisons, and some objects (like the kinds you can use with Fast Hands) use saves.
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Stormonu
Legend
I was to differentiate the three, I would look at something like this:
Great Weapon Fighter: inflicts direct extra damage
Two-Weapon Fighter: inflicts combat conditions (bleed, disarm, trip, etc.) via save vs. condition.
Shield & Weapon Fighter: Shield can negate combat conditions from being applied.
This creates a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors effect. GWF ignores the SWF ability, SWF cancels the TWF ability, SWF applies conditions that could negate GWF's damage advantage.
Great Weapon Fighter: inflicts direct extra damage
Two-Weapon Fighter: inflicts combat conditions (bleed, disarm, trip, etc.) via save vs. condition.
Shield & Weapon Fighter: Shield can negate combat conditions from being applied.
This creates a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors effect. GWF ignores the SWF ability, SWF cancels the TWF ability, SWF applies conditions that could negate GWF's damage advantage.
Well, for "balanced" we need a couple of criteria, and that's beyond just number crunching dpr on both the giving and taking sides.I like this approach, but it's still a matter of deciding what "balanced" means. As others have pointed out, as a rule of thumb/on average, dealing more damage is better than an AC bump. So high does an AC bump or other defense have to be before that's balanced? Ask five people in this thread, you'll get seven different answers.
1) There needs to be distinct niches. If you give everyone the power attack boon, suddenly, all styles play alike. This is bad, because then we'll have objectively better/worse choices, with only tiny variations. You'll have one style 100% overshadowing another, and that is flat out bad all the time.
2) Needs to make thematic sense. While some people are happy with any numbers, the vast majority of players want something that makes you feel like duel wielding, or really using your shield in battle, or that you are using spear tactics in battle. Hitting hard with a giant weapon makes sense. Hitting hard with a dagger? Not so much. Now, hitting with a flurry of thrown daggers which happen to deal a comparable amount of damage? That's another matter.
3) Needs to be active and engage the player. Polearm mastery lets you make off turn attacks, and bonus action attacks. Great Weapon Mastery lets you decide to power attack on a turn by turn basis, and it gives you Cleaves if you kill an enemy. Duel Wielding gives you static bonuses. The former are far more engaging on the table than the latter. As well, we don't need feats to give static bonuses - that's what the option to raise your attribute is for.
4) The numbers should roughly equal out, and not vastly overshadow the other. While optimizers and power gamers may consider one thing or another "superior" to another, a lot of the overall impact on an actual game isn't noticeable, since GM style plays a huge part. Great Weapons, Polearms, and Shields are all roughly equal, though they all play differently; heck, Shield Mastery is primarily defensive, and that's super attractive. For that matter, grappling and unarmed strikes work well through their feats. They all work differently, they all are roughly equal, making each a stylistic choice.
Defensive Duelist and Duel Wielder, however, has no such luck. They're too far outside the benefits of the others. The standard is +2 of your main attribute. The good feats are slightly better than that, but in niche situations. The bad feats are objectively worse than it in their situations.
You mean like giving Power Attack in a game where AC doesn't grow, but weapon accuracy naturally does? Repercussions like that?
The non-light weapons thing is actually really negligable. The only non-light weapons you can really use one handed (and thus with the feat) are the rapier, morningstar, and longsword; d8 weapons are your only choice, as all d10 weapons and above are two-handed. That's an average of +1 damage increase a hit. While not -nothing-, its not exactly something to write home about either. That +1 is hardly going to make anything broken.
The multiple attacks with something akin to Hunter Marks/Hexes, Two Weapon Fighting Style, and the kin is where I'm leery. Another attack could end up mathematically breaking the game, especially at lower levels. It also steps on the Fighter's toes of being the one with so many attacks. Could look into making it not take a bonus action, or increasing damage dice, or other things like that. "Each time you hit during your Attack action, you hit with your offhand weapon as well. Do not add your STR/DEX to the extra damage, or any outside things like Hex, but yes to weapon dice and enhancement bonus. Use the lower of the two dice pools when making the attack roll." Poor wording, admittedly, but you get the idea.
That's a very niche situation that likely needs its own feat each. Poison Master, for instance. We already have something that deals with Battle Manuevers, though admittedly that feat needs help as well; increasing the number of superiority dice, even if we drop the die itself down, would be awesome.
Overall, I'm leery of any feat that can mess with DCs directly, since (outside of poisons) that's basically the same thing as opting to increase your attribute instead of taking a feat. Battle Manuevers, monk ki-powers, even magic wands/staves all key off your own stats. There's the occasional item with a static DC, but I find it odd to have a Rope of Entanglement and Iron Flask both have a fighting style that makes them better, let alone a single character with both at once. And does it really make sense for the Iron Bands of Bilarro to benefit? I don't think so.
My thoughts on fixing some of the too-weak feats:
1) Defensive Duelist
- Can only be used wearing light or no armor; shields count as armor or not, depending on GM ruling
- Reaction to dodge damage from a single source by increasing AC by proficiency bonus
- Swift strike: can use bonus action to increase your weapon's damage by 1d6 for the turn.
2) Savage Attacker - can be used with Sneak Attack, Divine Strike, Smites, etc. Auto-triggers on a crit (for barbarians with their massive crits). The point is to allow the benefit to easily apply to anyone with an "massive-damage-all-in-one-hit" battle style.
3) Martial Adapt - get two superiority dice, drop them down to d4 instead of d6.
4) Medium Armor Mastery
- +1 AC, no stealth penalty. This puts medium armors on par with heavy armor while still allowing stealth.
- +1 STR or DEX (maybe CON?)
5) Duel Wielding
I'm not really sure how. I'm actually not very happy with TWF in the game as it is. I've been told more than once that duel wielding as a whole is a trap option by others. Is there a discussion somewhere on these boards about it?
1) Defensive Duelist
- Can only be used wearing light or no armor; shields count as armor or not, depending on GM ruling
- Reaction to dodge damage from a single source by increasing AC by proficiency bonus
- Swift strike: can use bonus action to increase your weapon's damage by 1d6 for the turn.
2) Savage Attacker - can be used with Sneak Attack, Divine Strike, Smites, etc. Auto-triggers on a crit (for barbarians with their massive crits). The point is to allow the benefit to easily apply to anyone with an "massive-damage-all-in-one-hit" battle style.
3) Martial Adapt - get two superiority dice, drop them down to d4 instead of d6.
4) Medium Armor Mastery
- +1 AC, no stealth penalty. This puts medium armors on par with heavy armor while still allowing stealth.
- +1 STR or DEX (maybe CON?)
5) Duel Wielding
I'm not really sure how. I'm actually not very happy with TWF in the game as it is. I've been told more than once that duel wielding as a whole is a trap option by others. Is there a discussion somewhere on these boards about it?
And if you need a 9+ to hit, using GWF is an average increase if you do 13 or less points per hit.
I hate the "reroll 1s and 2s" abilities because they are incredibly slow during game play.
I'd prefer, "Once on your turn, when you make a weapon attack, you may take a -5 penalty to your attack to deal +1d4 damage on a hit. The bonus damage increases to +1d6 at 5th level, +1d8 at 9th level, +1d10 at 13th level, and +1d12 at 17th level."
So the player still has a decision point (which I don't see as a problem) but rolling the bonus die is quick, easy and fun. PLUS it synergizes well with the existing GWF reroll bonus (which I still hate, grumble grumble).
I'd prefer, "Once on your turn, when you make a weapon attack, you may take a -5 penalty to your attack to deal +1d4 damage on a hit. The bonus damage increases to +1d6 at 5th level, +1d8 at 9th level, +1d10 at 13th level, and +1d12 at 17th level."
So the player still has a decision point (which I don't see as a problem) but rolling the bonus die is quick, easy and fun. PLUS it synergizes well with the existing GWF reroll bonus (which I still hate, grumble grumble).
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