Rangers and rogues aren't already out in the cold with TWF? Rogues usually only TWF when they can't arrange for advantage with Cunning Action, and the new article said that Rangers depend heavily on spells like Hunter Marks for a good part of their DPR at higher levels, and that sucks up their bonus actions... Am I mistaken?
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D&D 5E Creative solutions to the hypothetical GWF/Sharpshooter issue
- Thread starter Mouseferatu
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Mouseferatu
Hero
Because I vehemently dislike the idea of the combat styles all getting the same sort of advantage. They should be more or less equal, but not identical. If GWF is defined by the ability to do more damage, then the others should be defined by something else. Adding damage to them in more or less the same way as GWM does for GWF is, IMO, boring.
I feel strongly enough about it, in fact, that I'd rather the styles not be balanced, if it means keeping them distinct. (Not that I think that's a trade-off that must be made; just saying, if I had to, that's the call I'd make.)
Nice thread.
I agree with Mouseferatu about keeping a distinct feeling for weapons feats, so the actual problem I have with GWM and Sharpshooter are the fact that they are ostensibly for different weapon types and damage dies (d8 vs d10/d12/2d6), but largely give the same effect, -5 to hit for +10 damage. The plus 10 damage reduces the importance of the tradeoffs between those weapon types, proportionally speaking (d8 gets more % benefit than d10, d10 more than d12, etc). Which is the opposite of what it should do. The greataxe should get the biggest benefit from GWM, to my thinking.
What I would do is this; instead of -5 for +10 damage, I would say, trade either a -5 or one of your extra attacks for max damage or maybe double damage. That way the weapon's damage die is kept into account, you get up to a +11 max damage boost (for great swords) and +7 for arrows with sharpshooter. Or something along those lines. I like doubling the weapon's damage potential, I think that's fair.
For sharpshooter, to keep it distinct, I see it more like a sniper, who takes his time. So trade off one attack for double damage on a hit for this attack. Or maybe just make it an auto-crit. With great weapon master, I would make it do double damage dice in exchange for -5 to hit.
Static damage bonuses are boring, I agree. They reduce the relative importance and value of a character's weapon choice too. For example, Polearm Master combined with great weapon master is very overpowered I think, because you get one or two extra attacks, with reach, per round, with a d10 weapon but you can still use -5 to hit for +10 damage on each one. That makes it way better than both greatswords and greataxes. Plus it's still a single weapon, so you can find magic versions. Polearm master should not have given an off hand attack with strength mods for free either. Especially not when it can be combined with GWF so easily and so fortuitously.
A variant human fighter at level 5 can have three attacks at +1 to hit for 1d10/1d10/1d4 + 13 damage on each one. With reach. Plus an extra attack at +1 / 1d10 + 13 for an opportunity attack quite often. It's a blending machine.
Some of these feats were not thought out very well at all.
I agree with Mouseferatu about keeping a distinct feeling for weapons feats, so the actual problem I have with GWM and Sharpshooter are the fact that they are ostensibly for different weapon types and damage dies (d8 vs d10/d12/2d6), but largely give the same effect, -5 to hit for +10 damage. The plus 10 damage reduces the importance of the tradeoffs between those weapon types, proportionally speaking (d8 gets more % benefit than d10, d10 more than d12, etc). Which is the opposite of what it should do. The greataxe should get the biggest benefit from GWM, to my thinking.
What I would do is this; instead of -5 for +10 damage, I would say, trade either a -5 or one of your extra attacks for max damage or maybe double damage. That way the weapon's damage die is kept into account, you get up to a +11 max damage boost (for great swords) and +7 for arrows with sharpshooter. Or something along those lines. I like doubling the weapon's damage potential, I think that's fair.
For sharpshooter, to keep it distinct, I see it more like a sniper, who takes his time. So trade off one attack for double damage on a hit for this attack. Or maybe just make it an auto-crit. With great weapon master, I would make it do double damage dice in exchange for -5 to hit.
Static damage bonuses are boring, I agree. They reduce the relative importance and value of a character's weapon choice too. For example, Polearm Master combined with great weapon master is very overpowered I think, because you get one or two extra attacks, with reach, per round, with a d10 weapon but you can still use -5 to hit for +10 damage on each one. That makes it way better than both greatswords and greataxes. Plus it's still a single weapon, so you can find magic versions. Polearm master should not have given an off hand attack with strength mods for free either. Especially not when it can be combined with GWF so easily and so fortuitously.
A variant human fighter at level 5 can have three attacks at +1 to hit for 1d10/1d10/1d4 + 13 damage on each one. With reach. Plus an extra attack at +1 / 1d10 + 13 for an opportunity attack quite often. It's a blending machine.
Some of these feats were not thought out very well at all.
Ah.... with all due respect, I think you're overestimating Polearm Mastery here. There's nothing that says that Polearm Mastery can be used as an offhand attack with STR mod automatically (I personally think its not the intent to). As well, Great Weapon Mastery often includes that cleaving, extra action attack from the damage, and there's plenty of ways to get reactions, even without a feat.
When taken all together, its not too overpowered.
Putting aside that I don't think you add the STR to that last attack, GWF is a high level issue. At level 5, its not that bad of an issue - we're talking a proficency bonus of +3, a STR bonus of +3, -5 for power attacking. That's +1 to hit most mosters with an AC of at least 16. 75% miss chance. That's huge. You need more bonuses before it becomes worth using consistantly.
If anything, taking Polearm then Great Weapon right after the other is kinda silly. As I said, Great Weapon's power attack is a high level issue, generally. You can only get one bonus attack a turn, so you either get Cleave, or the polearm shaft attack, not both. At early levels, the two together are actually pretty niche overall, and a fair amount of lot of overlap in the bonus actions. Heaven forbid you the desire to use a bonus action to do something else, like a Smite Spell, Commander's Strike, or have access to Frenzy.
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Mouseferatu
Hero
By the RAW, yeah, it does get Str. The feat says nothing about it being an offhand attack, merely an extra attack. Offhand has a very specific meaning in the game, and this isn't called out as such. Just as the monk's extra attacks aren't considered offhand attacks, and thus are assumed to gain all relevant modifiers unless stated otherwise, the same is true here.
Well you do add STR mod to the d4 damage. It is an attack with the weapon, so also any buffs on the weapon apply, also it is a two handed weapon attack so the +10 damage from GWF and re-rolling 1's and 2's for the fighting style apply.
You only take the -5 to hit when you have buffs going, like bless for +1d4, using inspiration, or in some other way have advantage. A barbarian reckless attacking using GWF is most likely going to hit even if it is just a d20+1 because he rolls twice the AC of most monsters is pretty low.
Okay, stand corrected on that part, but my point on the bonus action part, and my experience that the reaction with the spear doesn't happen every turn, stand.
However, assuming buffs going is not a given. If you need, what, four or five parts to have one person shine really well? All at once? That's a several person, cross class machine you need to get working, and brings up speaks more about the benefits of accuracy fishing at low levels more than the brokeness of GWF
However, assuming buffs going is not a given. If you need, what, four or five parts to have one person shine really well? All at once? That's a several person, cross class machine you need to get working, and brings up speaks more about the benefits of accuracy fishing at low levels more than the brokeness of GWF
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I think it's fairly easy to trigger the OA from polearm master, and if it doesn't then you still get the bonus action attack from GWM regardless, since we're discussing the fact that they stack. The only issue then becomes, why wouldn't every fighter and barbarian pick up polearm master since it stacks with great weapon master's benefits so well. A level 5 human variant barbarian can have both feats and hit quite a lot, even with the -5, while raging, on up to 4 attacks per round. Or even 5 if he's going reckless.
The problem is the same as multi-attack buff stacking. Granting an extra d4 + str attack that can be used with GWM as well means that a fighter would be costing himself serious damage potential (not to mention reach) by not using polearms. I do not believe polearms should grant an extra attack with the butt end being considered "heavy" as well. It's kinda broken I think. Even on its own.
At level 5 the polearm guy is quite superior to the TWF guy. Because he can save his fighting style for defensive to get the +1 to AC that the dual wielder would have, and dual wielder can't benefit from GWM. 1d10 2 times a round and one bonus at 1d4 averages out to 1d8 three times, which is the same as the dual wielder. So polearm master has exactly the same benefits as dual wielder, except he can then also benefit from -5 / +10. And wielding one reach weapon is usually more convenient and certainly more powerful, than wielding two non-reach weapons. It's easier to find a single magic item than two. You can also hold the polearm in one hand, use it to poke ahead for traps. Put a flag on the end of it to alert allies or do other hijinx. Polearm master is strictly superior to Dual Wielder, and not only because it stacks with GWM.
The problem is the same as multi-attack buff stacking. Granting an extra d4 + str attack that can be used with GWM as well means that a fighter would be costing himself serious damage potential (not to mention reach) by not using polearms. I do not believe polearms should grant an extra attack with the butt end being considered "heavy" as well. It's kinda broken I think. Even on its own.
At level 5 the polearm guy is quite superior to the TWF guy. Because he can save his fighting style for defensive to get the +1 to AC that the dual wielder would have, and dual wielder can't benefit from GWM. 1d10 2 times a round and one bonus at 1d4 averages out to 1d8 three times, which is the same as the dual wielder. So polearm master has exactly the same benefits as dual wielder, except he can then also benefit from -5 / +10. And wielding one reach weapon is usually more convenient and certainly more powerful, than wielding two non-reach weapons. It's easier to find a single magic item than two. You can also hold the polearm in one hand, use it to poke ahead for traps. Put a flag on the end of it to alert allies or do other hijinx. Polearm master is strictly superior to Dual Wielder, and not only because it stacks with GWM.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Wait, how are you getting five attacks? I get four--two from the attack action at 5th+ level, one for the opportunity attack (which you won't get every round; once someone's closed, and stays close, that ceases to be an option), and one for either the butt-end of the pole-arm or the GWM cleave. But where's the fifth coming from?
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
Seeing as how Rangers have the Two-Weapon fighting style, the intent was probably for them to spend one bonus action to cast the spell (like a Barbarian using rage) and then use their subsequent bonus actions to attack. The extra damage triggers on every hit, hitting more times means more damage. They have to re-apply the mark every once in a while true, but it's limited resource to begin with so they wouldn't be doing it every fight, just the important ones.
As for Rogues, why wouldn't you have advantage if you are in melee, and why wouldn't you attack with two weapons when you have advantage? That's 4x the chance for Sneak Attack to trigger.
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