D&D 5E Paladin Smite Damage Cap

[Gladius Legis]

I cannot fathom why such a character would waste her potential on a few extra d6s?

So, you can use your only level 9 slot to do 10d8 extra damage. Once. Against a single target. That you actually have to face in combat.

When you are a 18-level spellcaster.

That instead could cast Meteor Swarm or Wish or something.

Wut!? In what scenario did this come across as so overpowered it needed capping?

I wouldn't spend a 9th-level slot for it, but then again the best 9th-level spells are intentionally designed to break the natural power curve from 1st-8th. So fair enough there.

But I'd feel pretty good about using a 6th- or 8th-level slot for it uncapped. What are your best single-target damage spells from 6th-8th? Disintegrate, which will outdamage a single-Smite turn IF the enemy fails the save, but is a literal wasted use of a slot if the save is successful (and forget about using it on Legendary enemies). An upcast Scorching Ray IF an Evoker or Gold/Red Dragon Sorcerer (but not otherwise). That's pretty much it. Smiting beyond 4th-level slots would be very competitive with those spells raw damage-wise, even if you only Smite once that turn (and wipes those spells out if you Smite twice or more), and would be a more practical use of your slots in many cases.

 

[Rocksome]

I always interpreted it to mean a cap of 6d8, 1d8 + maximum of 5d8 on top for the level of the spell slot. It seems to me that the whole idea behind limiting to 5d8 is because paladins get up to 5th level spells. It just seems to work naturally with their spell slots this way, and thus the cap is to prevent multi-class casters becoming better smiters than paladin with a couple level dip. The idea that paladins get 5th level spells but the 5th level smite is no better than a 4th level smite is ridiculous.

1st = 2d8 (1d8 base + 1d8 extra)
2nd = 3d8 (1d8 base + 2d8 extra)
3rd = 4d8 (1d8 base + 3d8 extra)
4th = 5d8 (1d8 base + 4d8 extra)
5th = 6d8 (1d8 base + 5d8 MAX extra)

Yes it is poorly worded, but it's a much more logical fit as there is no reason to limit a class with a smiting ability and 5th level spells arbitrarily.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I think one of the primary motivators for the spell slot cap was to avoid situations where a paladin 2/caster 18 is actually better at smiting than a full paladin by expending slots that a paladin doesn't have access to. It would be expected that the full paladin would have stronger smites. After all smite is one of the main things that that differentiates the paladin from a fighter/cleric multiclass.

Actually, now that I think about it a multiclassed paladin 2/caster x would have stronger smites than a full paladin just by getting access to the higher level slots faster. At least until the paladin gains access to improved smite. Feels weird to me.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I always interpreted it to mean a cap of 6d8, 1d8 + maximum of 5d8 on top for the level of the spell slot. It seems to me that the whole idea behind limiting to 5d8 is because paladins get up to 5th level spells. It just seems to work naturally with their spell slots this way, and thus the cap is to prevent multi-class casters becoming better smiters than paladin with a couple level dip. The idea that paladins get 5th level spells but the 5th level smite is no better than a 4th level smite is ridiculous.

1st = 2d8 (1d8 base + 1d8 extra)
2nd = 3d8 (1d8 base + 2d8 extra)
3rd = 4d8 (1d8 base + 3d8 extra)
4th = 5d8 (1d8 base + 4d8 extra)
5th = 6d8 (1d8 base + 5d8 MAX extra)

Yes it is poorly worded, but it's a much more logical fit as there is no reason to limit a class with a smiting ability and 5th level spells arbitrarily.

This is interesting. I really don't think this is what was intended by the designers given the wording in the book, but I like this. I agree that it's weird and arbitrary how the damage scaling just stops after 4th level spell slots. It's inconsistent with how the other spell slots interact with smite and that just creates confusion. I might end up using this. I don't think it breaks anything.

 

[spinozajack]

Improved divine smite = yet another reason the paladin should be using a polearm (all extra attacks gain 1d8 damage). sure, you could get that by dual wielding, except they don't allow the two weapon fighting style for paladins (why?), and regardless, it would be dumb to give up +10 damage to 2 attacks to gain a third one. No, you should pick 3 attacks per round, each with 1d8 free smite damage and +10 from gwm.

Paladins are pretty great in this ed. I just wish the feats didn't force me to use a polearm. Picking a class built for both melee damage and tanking, then picking a ridiculously substandard weapon mechanically for this purpose (longsword or greatsword), is rather meh, both in character and out. Why throw away 1d4 + 1d8 + 5 + 10 + (1-3 magic weapon) + (2-5 sacred weapon) for nothing? It's about 22-25 damage for that extra attack alone. Even dropping from 7 to 5.5 is merely 3 points (2 attacks with a greatsword). So you're still ahead about 19-22 damage, before you even consider the reaction attack from OAs, or the fact that you can reach beyond the front lines or obstacles. Assuming both PCs pick +1 to AC instead of GWF because, let's face it, GWF is a poor choice compared to an extra point of AC.

Paladins are already smiting powerhouses.

Depending on the campaign style and the frequency of combat, a paladin can hoard his spell slots for the BBEG or the big brutes to take them out in one round. You could take them out even more readily and quickly if you took two levels of fighter for Action Surge. Nova potential in D&D is huge. DPR analysis needs to take into account the actual number of attacks you make in an adventuring day, on average, and that can vary wildly. So it does make sense to blow all your smites and call it a day once you've killed the BBEG. It's not like your base damage potential isn't already pretty good anyway, after you spent all your spell slots. I wouldn't worry about it. Nova damage in practice is a huge thing in D&D. DPR isn't really an accurate portrayal of most games I think.

I like the tactical aspect of picking when to use smites and on whom (or what)

 

[KarinsDad]

The Paladin in my group has hit for about 12d6 + 34d8 + 45. The cap does not need to be raised.

You're forgetting about spells like Hold Person/Hold Monster. Tons of classes get them (including Paladins) and as your DC goes up it becomes very effective.

NPCs are humanoid (generally), just waiting to fail a high DC hold person, and then smited for double damage on all dice. If the Paladin could use higher level slots he could do 60d8 in radiant damage once per day. Using a great sword that's over 300 damage in one round.

I faced this a lot running an underdark campaign where most enemy creatures are Drow, thus humanoid.

Could you break this down for us?

I get the automatic critical for a Hold, but where does the PC get 6D6 + 19D8 + 45 in the first place?

Or are you talking two attacks per round with two criticals?

 

[DaveDash]

Could you break this down for us?

I get the automatic critical for a Hold, but where does the PC get 6D6 + 19D8 + 45 in the first place?

Or are you talking two attacks per round with two criticals?

Three attacks per round using Great Weapon Master. You can use your bonus action to attack again on a critical or a kill.

So his damage cap using hold person is around 12d6 + 10d8 (L4) + 10d8 (L4) + 8d8 (L3) + 6d8 (Improved Divine Smite) +15 (GMW -5/+10) * 3 attacks.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Why throw away 1d4 + 1d8 + 5 + 10 + (1-3 magic weapon) + (2-5 sacred weapon) for nothing?

I don't think sacred weapon boosts damage, does it?


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[Gladius Legis]

It doesn't. Just accuracy.

 

[CapnZapp]

I wouldn't spend a 9th-level slot for it, but then again the best 9th-level spells are intentionally designed to break the natural power curve from 1st-8th. So fair enough there.

But I'd feel pretty good about using a 6th- or 8th-level slot for it uncapped. What are your best single-target damage spells from 6th-8th? Disintegrate, which will outdamage a single-Smite turn IF the enemy fails the save, but is a literal wasted use of a slot if the save is successful (and forget about using it on Legendary enemies). An upcast Scorching Ray IF an Evoker or Gold/Red Dragon Sorcerer (but not otherwise). That's pretty much it. Smiting beyond 4th-level slots would be very competitive with those spells raw damage-wise, even if you only Smite once that turn (and wipes those spells out if you Smite twice or more), and would be a more practical use of your slots in many cases.

Okay, so mathematically, you have a case.

You still haven't explained to me why and how our spellcaster finds himself even remotely close to the enemy so as to smite it. (Yes, she has two Paladin levels. But she's still a squishie with those 18 levels of mushy mushy spellcaster). In other words, how about a little appreciation of those spells having range...