D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[JRRNeiklot]

What do you HATE about 5th Edition?

Pretty much everything.

 

[Shasarak]

What is a single non combat task a fighter can accomplish that a commoner could not. Sure, the fighter might have slightly higher check bonus, but even a commoner can eventually accomplish a DC 20 task. Hell, if the commoner has the same proficiency bonus and the same ability bonus, he accomplishes task just as well as the fighter.

I thought that was the whole idea of bounded accuracy, so that your average commoner can eventually accomplish mostly everything.

 

[Imaro]

I thought that was the whole idea of bounded accuracy, so that your average commoner can eventually accomplish mostly everything.

Even though this claim has been made by a few posters... mathematically it's not possible. Someone with a 10 attribute and no proficiency in what they are attempting does not have a chance to accomplish everything (barring some kind of mundane or magical aid). And an attribute of an 8 without proficiency can't accomplish anything in the hard and DC's (20-30) without some kind of aid. I'm not sure where the posters who've stated this are getting it from...


Edit: In other words contrary to what has been bandied about in this thread by some people... proficiency (because it scales) and high attribute bonuses (because they allow you to accomplish things in the top most tiers of difficulty when combined with proficiency) are very important and valuable in 5e.

 

[Imaro]

The difficulty of modelling fictional heroes in D&D - especially non-wizardly ones - doesn't shed any light on the contrast between fiction and RPGs. It sheds light on idiosyncracies of D&D's mechanics. For instance, the Marvel Heroic RPG does an excellent job of modelling the fictional characters (Marvel superheroes) that players play in that system.

Yeah I'm going to disagree with this as well... I have the Marvel Heroic rpg and what it models is comic books, as in their narrative structure, pacing, idiosyncrasies, inconsistencies, etc. and it does a good job at this... that said IMO it doesn't really model the actual characters very well...

 

[Umbran]

It's pure meta-game drivel. Shenanigans of the highest order. Just skimming through the book made me nauseous.

Have you considered that your OneTrueWayism leaves others feeling about the same?

Really, dude. Leave some space for things to be okay, but not your personal cup of tea. Because this is kind of insulting and disrespectful to anyone who doesn't share your personal interests.

 

[Umbran]

Yeah I'm going to disagree with this as well... I have the Marvel Heroic rpg and what it models is comic books, as in their narrative structure, pacing, idiosyncrasies, inconsistencies, etc. and it does a good job at this... that said IMO it doesn't really model the actual characters very well...

Except that it has to, by definition.

I mean, think of it - are comic book characters driven by an objective model of their abilities, or by the comic book style? Do the writers look at a set of stats and decide what happens? If you actually try to model the character as presented in the book, then you don't get a consistent objective set of stats - you get something that moves with the ebb and flow of narrative.

So, basically, there's a difference between "model a character in a comic book" and "objectively model a person with superpowers". MSHRP does the first, and doesn't do the second. But I don't think it makes any bones about what it does. You can't criticize a toaster for not being a blender, unless they advertise it as such.

 

[Imaro]

Except that it has to, by definition.

I mean, think of it - are comic book characters driven by an objective model of their abilities, or by the comic book style? Do the writers look at a set of stats and decide what happens? If you actually try to model the character as presented in the book, then you don't get a consistent objective set of stats - you get something that moves with the ebb and flow of narrative.

So, basically, there's a difference between "model a character in a comic book" and "objectively model a person with superpowers". MSHRP does the first, and doesn't do the second. But I don't think it makes any bones about what it does. You can't criticize a toaster for not being a blender, unless they advertise it as such.

Well we did used to get those marvel handbooks (not sure if they are still around or not) that ranked hereos objectively and were supposed to be cannon... so if were using those as a basis, no it doesn't model the actual characters well.

I'm not criticizing it for what it does... in fact I said it does a good job at this.

But to go further and comment on the context in which this was posted...using it's modeling of comic stories as an example of a way to model the fighter in D&D type play... especially since D&D doesn't profess to model any one type of fantasy story or genre... I just don't think it's a good fit. Are we modelling Conan, Fafhrd and Gray Mouser... Arthurian Knights, Warriors of Native American or African legends, Viking-esque raiders or Greek inspired warriors... In other words exactly whose stories are we emulating to model the fighter archetype if we go this route?

EDIT: This is also the issue I have with the Eldritch Knight being considered an invalid archetype by some... there are plenty of legends, myths, etc. (at least in cultures outside the European baseline) where fighters and warriors are gifted with some mystical abilities... so why is a subclass that uses magic not a valid fighter archetype?

 

[Imaro]

I think 4e can do a reasonable job of modelling Conan. At low levels he would be a STR ranger with a rogue multi-class. At paragon tier he would be a fighter (or perhaps hybrid fighter-ranger) with a warlord multi-class. His second stat would be DEX. His trained skills would be Acro, Athletics, Endurance, Nature, Perception and Stealth. Maybe at higher levels train out Nature for Streetwise, and pick up Intimidation.

There are oddities of trying to run Conan in 4e because he is generally a solo-protagonist and 4e is not ideal for solo play; but PC build isn't part of the problem, I don't think, and nor is general action resolution.

If you're giving him a totally different set of classes and abilties in the heroic tier vs. the paragon tier...doesn't that kind of speak to the problem, build wise, of modelling him in 4e? I mean you're basically saying I can model him if I break the rules between tiers. And just to be clear... I don't think any version of D&D models Conan throughout his entire career well... and I do think it's because he is too broadly proficient and is a singular protagonist in stories vs. a character for a game centered on a group of protagonists who contribute in their niche...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If you're giving him a totally different set of classes and abilties in the heroic tier vs. the paragon tier...doesn't that kind of speak to the problem, build wise, of modelling him in 4e? I mean you're basically saying I can model him if I break the rules between tiers. And just to be clear... I don't think any version of D&D models Conan throughout his entire career well... and I do think it's because he is too broadly proficient and is a singular protagonist in stories vs. a character for a game centered on a group of protagonists who contribute in their niche...

I think the character EVOLVED, and also changed depending on the story. This in fact amusingly enough brings us back to your objections to the MHRP system which, interestingly enough, would have NO TROUBLE AT ALL modeling Conan's transition from barbarian yokel to roguish adventurer, and finally king. Honestly, it might not work super smoothly in that game either, mostly because it does well in modeling dramatic needs, but is less oriented towards growth.

I think you CAN make a game that models such heroes reasonably well. It would combine some features of Cortex Plus or similar systems with some elements of D&D's concept of progression. 4e would be an excellent starting point, though you would have to drive its plot mechanics much deeper into the system.

 

[Imaro]

I think the character EVOLVED, and also changed depending on the story. This in fact amusingly enough brings us back to your objections to the MHRP system which, interestingly enough, would have NO TROUBLE AT ALL modeling Conan's transition from barbarian yokel to roguish adventurer, and finally king. Honestly, it might not work super smoothly in that game either, mostly because it does well in modeling dramatic needs, but is less oriented towards growth.

I think you CAN make a game that models such heroes reasonably well. It would combine some features of Cortex Plus or similar systems with some elements of D&D's concept of progression. 4e would be an excellent starting point, though you would have to drive its plot mechanics much deeper into the system.

Well yes he evolves but it's 4e's limited multi-classing that makes it hard to model Conan's evolution without wholesale changes to his classes... thus my assertion that 4e wouldn't model a character as broadly proficient as him very well. At the end of the day D&D (all editions) don't really support single protagonist adventurers who can pretty much handle all challenges... Even with open multi-classing like 3.x your effectiveness suffers with the more classes you take

Now don't get me wrong I believe there are systems that can model protagonists like Conan easily... leaving aside MHRpg I think FATE/Legends of Anglerre would do an even better job... what I don't agree with is that...

1. Any version of D&D can or necessarily should be able to model an exact Conan clone since he's a specific character in a specific world with conceits that aren't necessarily found in D&D's default rules or world...

2.The way games like MHRP or FATE model character's like Conan is a good model for D&D... The closest I've seen in a d20 game is 13th Age with it's free-form skills and the multi-classing rules in the supplement 13 True Ways... but even it's got limitations that would make it hard to model Conan exactly... but neither 5e, 4e or 13th Age is the Conan rpg so why should they be able to model him? I mean I can't create Elric either (mainly because D&D magic is nothing like that in the Young Kingdoms but are these a flaw in D&D or in my expectations?)