D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Hussar

Legend
I think the only thing I can honestly say that I hate about 5e is the organization. Heck, this thread shows that - look at the examples for 5e setting DC's for actions. [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], I believe, posted a dozen or so different pages listing guidelines for determining DC's. It's bloody annoying. And the index is :):):):)ing useless. I want to find a giant wasp in the MM index. So, I have to look under "G" for giant? No listing under "W"?

Never mind trying to find skill stuff in the index in the PHB. ARGH.

Sorry, personal bugaboo here. I find the 5e books very opaque when it comes to using them as a reference book. Fun to read, but, annoying as all get out to use at the table.

Oh, and one other thing that I don't like in 5e. The level of flavour in the Monster Manual. They really, really added a bunch of stuff to almost every monster that I don't feel was needed. Sorry, no, my minotaurs are not cursed humans. My kobolds are not slaves to dragons. Salamanders are not slaves to the Efreet. Stop trying to ram specific flavour down my throat. Give me the monsters, give me some generic background, and get the hell out of my way.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think the summary of all this is bounded accuracy works great in combat, but I'm not sold on it yet in out of combat stuff. It leads to weirdness on one hand where Wizards bust through castle doors using a shoulder charge, while the raging Barbarian bounces off it, and on the other hand expertise breaks bounded accuracy. It's all fixable, but I am only just now settling on things I am comfortable with and I have been DMing 5e now for almost a year.

Yeah, I agree, it works fine in combat, but really in combat things are not THAT much different from the situation in other systems. Yes, an orc is a bit more of a threat, especially en-mass, at a bit higher levels than in any earlier edition, but given the established 'level of challenge' of any given group of monsters the numbers will play out fairly similarly.
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION], and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] have some good points though. Where 5e is particularly unhelpful is if you are trying to separate out adjudication and resolution. I think we all want the players to be responsible for what happens to them, the consequences of their play. There's clearly a DM who mediates the fiction and is at least the 'chairman' when it comes to rules interpretation, sure. When it comes time to determine what the consequences of character's actions do mean though, 5e is not the most helpful, and Pemerton's point about resource management is a good one in particular. This was a real strength of 4e, the WORST you could say there might be "well, the fighter's have a lot more HS than the wizards, maybe an HS loss doesn't mean quite the same thing", but at least the players could adjust their decision-making, use slightly different tactics and let the fighter off the hook for a round or two, maybe let a couple monsters chew on the wizard instead if that helps fix their resource problems (or get hold of certain items or rituals that allow HS transfer).
 

marroon69

Explorer
No hate here , I played it a few times, rules are easier but vague (some people find this good some find it bad) but I am not a fan of WOTC/Hasbro. They seem to lots of other stuff going on and thus this line will seems to be getting neglected until "E6!" comes out. I personally do not want another version of any game. Increment rule changes to the existing game are ok but E6 is off my radar already (as is the mythical pathfinder 2.0 people talk about). They seem to fine farming things out as opposed creating support internally, which is not always bad but tends to lead to consistency issues and lack of overall vision....I was hoping for revival of some of the different settings which were hinted at and a renewed focus on this line but does not seem to be happening.

P.S. Yes the halfling art is disturbing we have labeled it (BHSF - big heads small feet) :)
 

Imaro

Legend
Whether or not 5e DCs are "fixed to the world" seems to be a matter of contention. @Imaro and @Celtavian don't agree, as best I can tell from their posts.

I've already said that if the example DC's found in 4e don't count as objective for purposes of determining what DC's are based upon... then I have to agree with @Celtavian... 5e's DC's are subjective... the difference is 5e allows the DM to decide what that subjectivity is based on, while 4e chooses to base it around level.
 
Last edited:

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It appears to me that 5e's system simplistically deploys DCs as a sort of 'minefield'. There are lots of checks at fairly low success levels, with potentially DCs being arbitrarily high even in situations designed for low level PCs. The theory being to just 'make it all challenging' and hope it works out. A 4e adventure is structured (ideally, many are poorly written) such that the DCs provide story variation, which character gets the spotlight now, and perhaps which path you take based on choosing a risk/reward level.

I think your characterization of 5e's DC's is off. If a low level PC encounters a significantly high DC, there are a few things to note:
  • There's still a chance, thanks to Bounded Accuracy and mechanics like advantage. There are vanishingly few DC's that are actually impossible. That's heroic and legendary - that's Bilbo Baggins sneaking into a dragon's lair.
  • The sense of accomplishment in overcoming the challenge is huge because the challenge doesn't calibrate itself to your capability. The lock doesn't care if you're a level 1 rogue or a level 20 rogue, so if you're a level 1 rogue and it's a very hard DC and you get it anyway - that's a huge win, a reward for clever play, and a lucky roll.
  • A "managable" DC in that same situation would be a speedbump - roll until someone gets lucky enough to beat it. The "insane" DC in that situation presents a decision point - do we try and look for every edge we can to get through it, or do we go around? If we go around, where do we go? What do we do instead? How might we solve this issue if we can't go through this door?

That is the players could choose to fight the hobgoblins, or they could choose to cross the Great Gulch on the rickety bridge. The fight might be a pretty sure bet, but plainly going to cost some surges and whatnot. Crossing the bridge is riskier, if the bridge fails someone could die, but if its successful then you got by with just skill checks (an SC probably).

Either one is a pretty sure bet when the chance for success only differs by a few almost cosmetic percentage points. And the fight actually is given favor in this situation since 4e PC's have unique combat powers to deal with fights and don't have a lot of unique exploration powers to deal with rickety bridges.

The point being, if you examine the chances of success in 4e checks, they're not very tough to pass in general. The game WANTS you to succeed.

I think this is one of the philosophical differences. If a game wants you to succeed, it's not offering a very meaningful choice - either way, you're probably going to succeed. Either way, you win. Either way, the good guys emerge victorious. The fight vs. the bridge doesn't actually affect your chances of the mission succeeding or failing much.

5e throws back to pre-4e game-centered philosophy in that in general it is perfectly okay with you failing disastrously, if that's how it plays out. Now, when the fight is at 1st level against a young green dragon and the bridge is rickety but at least manageable, things like reconnaissance and scouting and in-character research and questions pay off: they let you know the situation before you blunder into it, because if you blunder into a bad situation, you will eat it, and there will be consequences. It's not just choosing the color of the explosions in your ending, it's choosing if you get the good ending, or the bad one.

Of course, you can have calibrated DC's as well (it's not hard to look at the proficiency bonus and say, "okay, this +10 is what my medium DC for a proficient character is, maybe +1-5 if I want to include the ability bonus"), so it doesn't exclude that more stable choice, either.

This is why the SC system is really so core to everything. While we've debated the check mechanics of each system, the truth is the raw check mechanics of 4e are intended for a rather different purpose than in 5e. They inject tension and some uncertainty, but they're not intended to create hard obstacles to success, at least not until the players have chosen to trust their fates to pure chance.

Overcoming hard obstacles is part of the fun of play. Creating story out of dramatic decision points is part of the fun of play. There is a reason that "kill your darlings" is absolutely critical writing advice, and that stories where victory is assured are often dull. Games where you don't actually beat difficult challenges can also be underwhelming (imagine Super Meat Boy on "Easy mode.")

Which isn't to say that there's One True Way, merely that the 5e default isn't game-destroying. It just encourages DMs to think about what the challenge should be over the course of an entire campaign, not necessarily what is challenging to their particular parties in the moment, because things like bounded accuracy ensure that if the players want to, or if they get lucky, they can hit things that you might have thought difficult.
 

I've already said that if the example DC's found in 4e don't count as objective for purposes of determining what DC's are based upon... then I have to agree with @Celtavian... 5e's DC's are subjective... the difference is 5e allows the DM to decide what that subjectivity is based on, while 4e chooses to base it around level.

Again, I don't know what would lead anyone to believe that 4e is more limited in this respect than 5e. If, for some bizarre reason, you wished to base all your DCs off some other thing, you can simply scale all DCs by level and do whatever you want (IE you'll be essentially wiping out the built-in progression by breaking the fiction-to-DC linkage entirely and establishing some other one). In such a setup the players will still be free to spend extra resources on skill bonus growth and get better at things, but the results would be pretty similar to what they look like in 5e, with only a modest increase. The only real difference would be that you wouldn't experience ANY level-based growth. OTOH 4e comes with a steady flow of feats and you can simply routinely spend one now and then to gain a little bonus growth.

The issue here is its a lot harder to ADD range to a compressed system. Its not that hard to trim range out of a wider system because you can always just ignore part of the range in various ways.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This is the thing, though: What is a 'better result?' Because people will not agree on that.
As there is usually only one DM at that table, obviously, the DM is the judge of 'better.'

Another example is the DM who applies very specific real-world physics to non-magic users, but lets magic do everything...discouraging non-casters.
That's his choice, of course. If a DM wants his campaign would to emphasize the importance or supernatural aspect or primacy of magic, that would be one way to do it.

So ultimately, what my toon does, succeeds or fails, isn't up to me? It's just GM fiat? Why play?
Ultimately, what your character chooses to do (attempt) is up to you. What he is able to do, and whether any instance of doing them succeeds or fails is up to the DM, yes.

Arbitrary GM fiat and arbitrary mechanistic application of the rules are not the only alternatives, and even if they were, a GM could use a mix of the two.

The sense of accomplishment in overcoming the challenge is huge because the challenge doesn't calibrate itself to your capability. The lock doesn't care if you're a level 1 rogue or a level 20 rogue.
This is nonsense. The DM determines how difficult things are. He can take the party's abilities into account to make the game challenging ('tailored') or he can create the world independently and let the players try to figure out which challenges they should take on and in what order ('status quo'). That's how it is in 5e, that's how it was in every prior edition, that's how it is, period.

I think this is one of the philosophical differences. If a game wants you to succeed, it's not offering a very meaningful choice - either way, you're probably going to succeed. Either way, you win. Either way, the good guys emerge victorious. The fight vs. the bridge doesn't actually affect your chances of the mission succeeding or failing much.
It's a genre trope, as well. In the broader fantasy genre, and in heroic stories of any kind, really, heroes face many challenges, most of which seem to range from risky to overwhelmingly dangerous, with the Hero surviving by the skin of his teeth repeatedly. Design a game with random resolution to match that appearance, and every PC will die before any adventure is completed. No one will ever reach 2nd level. Rather, the game has to tune it to the rate at which heroes survive, not the way their challenges are portrayed. And the hero generally lives through all the challenges that take him up to that final confrontation at the climax of the story...

5e throws back to pre-4e game-centered philosophy in that in general it is perfectly okay with you failing disastrously, if that's how it plays out.
It's not like a game could actually get upset with you for failing, but I think I get what you're trying to say. In the early days of RPGs, they were still very much like wargames, they set up a scenario, and did your best to achieve victory conditions with the units provided. The challenge was to achieve victory, and there were no particular constraints on how. As RPGs - and gamers - got more sophisticated, they started thinking in other terms, genre, character concepts, and stories, and the 'victory conditions' shifted. If you're playing a game that seeks to emulate a genre where characters are killed off only rarely, and even then in meaningful ways, a TPK is a complete failure. Not just a mere loss for one player, but a failure of the DM & all players involved.

D&D, eventually (far behind the curve, as always) introduced some improved mechanics and guidelines to help the DM do his part to run successful games. The resulting CR guidelines often failed - producing a 'speedbump' fight that turned into a TPK, or a tough, climactic battle that turned into a rollover - but they were improved over the 15 years that D&D struggled to deliver on the idea. 5e's CR guidelines are back to being less than dependable, probably as an alternative to just chucking them entirely, in keeping with the classic D&D, wargame-like, philosophy.

I just look at it this way, for my purposes I don't need statements telling me that I can 'do it my way'. I've been DMing for pretty close to 40 years now, I do it my way.
Consider, though, that those statements are not hidden in the DMG somewhere, 'behind the curtain,' but are up-front in the most basic 'how to play' explanation of the game that every player should read.

If you have a stable group, that may not matter, but, if as I do, you run 5e at public venues (and, that's actually the only context in which I run 5e), it's very helpful to have everyone on the same page when it comes to the function, role & responsibilities of the DM. What 5e does, in that sense (that classic D&D also did, and which 3.0 tried to do unsuccessfully) is to shape the community consensus on the issue - that a big part of its "DM Empowerment" agenda.

The role, for me, for rules is to provide RULES, things I can just read and say "ah, OK, so when X happens the player makes a check, like so." Now, if I don't like the way something works, then I change it. They work OK in 5e too, most of the time, but they seem to have this fetish with writing incomplete or niche rules sometimes.
Nod. They leave rules open to interpretation, even fairly basic rules that will see frequent use. That way the players become accustomed to the idea of the DM making rulings that need to be respected being necessary just to play the game. That they also help the DM shape the game experience - impose class balance, present challenges, tell a story, assure the players are having fun with it, and so forth - may not be so evident, but are supported by that acclimation to DM is sole arbiter.

Again, I don't know what would lead anyone to believe that 4e is more limited in this respect than 5e.
Well, there was that 7-year campaign of lies and misinformation known as the edition war.

The issue here is its a lot harder to ADD range to a compressed system. Its not that hard to trim range out of a wider system because you can always just ignore part of the range in various ways.
True. You can snip out a sub-set of the range, you can tune adventures around a narrower bound about the point on that range the PC are currently at.

Adding range to something like 5e would be a matter of adding levels. Currently, like 3.x, it's 20 levels. You could pile Epic levels on top of that, like 3.x did.

My concern, as a GM, is with managing pacing (including the contributions to pacing of successes and failures) in a way that does not unduly favour one player over another. I don't feel that 5e's guidelines help me a lot with that, because (whether or not I treat the DCs as "world set") they don't give me advice on how those DCs relate to expected PC capabilities and player resources.
How could they? Party resources are going to vary with party composition. Some parties may be heavy with short-rest-recharge resources, other with long-rest-recharge. Some will have more hps and more short-rest healing, others more in-combat healing available. There's no way to present much of an idea of what's 'expected.'

The DM in 5e is just a more responsible role than it was in the prior two editions. More depends on the DM's talents, experience, system mastery & artistry.

(I also think you have mischaracterised Gygax's advice in his DMG. He is quite emphatic that overriding the dice in respect of action resolution would be contrary to the most important tenets of the game. The only bit of action resolution override he countenances is in how to adjudicate a PC being dropped to zero hit points. But that's something of a tangent.)
He might not have agreed with taking it as far into the moment-by-moment resolution system as 5e has, but the basic idea that the rules are a 'starting point,' that the DM works from, rather than something he must abide by has always been there. EGG might have preferred the DM actually write down any variations he had in mind, for instance, rather than making them up on the fly. Then again, he also counseled DMs to keep ahead of their players in terms of rules-knowledge. So, whether you have some variant in Gygaxian D&D (and don't volunteer the details of it to the players) or are ruling arbitrarily in 5e, you're an Empowered DM, and the player experience is comparable: one of mystery and discovery.
 
Last edited:

Yeah, I agree, it works fine in combat, but really in combat things are not THAT much different from the situation in other systems. Yes, an orc is a bit more of a threat, especially en-mass, at a bit higher levels than in any earlier edition, but given the established 'level of challenge' of any given group of monsters the numbers will play out fairly similarly.

If you'll pardon the tangent:

This hasn't been my experience. As a DM it would be fairly trivial to game the system and create "Easy" challenges which are actually quite dangerous, or Hard challenges that are easy.

I do the latter occasionally as a reward/tutorial to my players: Here, have a Blue Slaad! (officially Hard for 3 6th-ish level PCs) and an allosaur to ride on while you learn the power of ranged kiting.

I've also done the former as a way to make drow terrifying: Here, get utterly schooled by an Easy challenge (a handful of drow soldiers) because you're on their home ground. Technically, by DMG standards that made it a Medium challenge, but in any case it actually wound up Deadly: one dead PC, the other one unconscious and rolling death saves while the drow regrouped. It came this close to being a TPK and it scared the players badly. Now they are much smarter about venturing into drow territory, and they feel good about themselves when they e.g. kill 8 drow with no deaths at level 12. Even though that is technically a trivial encounter (not even Easy) by DMG standards, the established emotional context makes it an accomplishment.
 

5e throws back to pre-4e game-centered philosophy in that in general it is perfectly okay with you failing disastrously, if that's how it plays out. Now, when the fight is at 1st level against a young green dragon and the bridge is rickety but at least manageable, things like reconnaissance and scouting and in-character research and questions pay off: they let you know the situation before you blunder into it, because if you blunder into a bad situation, you will eat it, and there will be consequences. It's not just choosing the color of the explosions in your ending, it's choosing if you get the good ending, or the bad one.

So much this. I wouldn't play 5E if I felt like it didn't support this playstyle. The fact that it does is what brought me back to D&D after a decade and a half away.
 

I think your characterization of 5e's DC's is off. If a low level PC encounters a significantly high DC, there are a few things to note:
  • There's still a chance, thanks to Bounded Accuracy and mechanics like advantage. There are vanishingly few DC's that are actually impossible. That's heroic and legendary - that's Bilbo Baggins sneaking into a dragon's lair.
  • The sense of accomplishment in overcoming the challenge is huge because the challenge doesn't calibrate itself to your capability. The lock doesn't care if you're a level 1 rogue or a level 20 rogue, so if you're a level 1 rogue and it's a very hard DC and you get it anyway - that's a huge win, a reward for clever play, and a lucky roll.
  • A "managable" DC in that same situation would be a speedbump - roll until someone gets lucky enough to beat it. The "insane" DC in that situation presents a decision point - do we try and look for every edge we can to get through it, or do we go around? If we go around, where do we go? What do we do instead? How might we solve this issue if we can't go through this door?
And how is it a good idea to have an adventure where the actual experience of challenge is so heavily gated on one really lucky die roll?

Either one is a pretty sure bet when the chance for success only differs by a few almost cosmetic percentage points. And the fight actually is given favor in this situation since 4e PC's have unique combat powers to deal with fights and don't have a lot of unique exploration powers to deal with rickety bridges.



I think this is one of the philosophical differences. If a game wants you to succeed, it's not offering a very meaningful choice - either way, you're probably going to succeed. Either way, you win. Either way, the good guys emerge victorious. The fight vs. the bridge doesn't actually affect your chances of the mission succeeding or failing much.

5e throws back to pre-4e game-centered philosophy in that in general it is perfectly okay with you failing disastrously, if that's how it plays out. Now, when the fight is at 1st level against a young green dragon and the bridge is rickety but at least manageable, things like reconnaissance and scouting and in-character research and questions pay off: they let you know the situation before you blunder into it, because if you blunder into a bad situation, you will eat it, and there will be consequences. It's not just choosing the color of the explosions in your ending, it's choosing if you get the good ending, or the bad one.

Of course, you can have calibrated DC's as well (it's not hard to look at the proficiency bonus and say, "okay, this +10 is what my medium DC for a proficient character is, maybe +1-5 if I want to include the ability bonus"), so it doesn't exclude that more stable choice, either.



Overcoming hard obstacles is part of the fun of play. Creating story out of dramatic decision points is part of the fun of play. There is a reason that "kill your darlings" is absolutely critical writing advice, and that stories where victory is assured are often dull. Games where you don't actually beat difficult challenges can also be underwhelming (imagine Super Meat Boy on "Easy mode.")

Which isn't to say that there's One True Way, merely that the 5e default isn't game-destroying. It just encourages DMs to think about what the challenge should be over the course of an entire campaign, not necessarily what is challenging to their particular parties in the moment, because things like bounded accuracy ensure that if the players want to, or if they get lucky, they can hit things that you might have thought difficult.

[/quote]

All of this illustrates what I like to call the 'fallacy of the hard die roll'. RPGs are not more or less challenging based on what the DCs are. Challenge is injected into the game in a variety of ways, but none of them are 'being able to roll a 20', because there's no challenge in dice rolling. There MIGHT be tension, but its a pretty limited form of it. What makes a game interesting, and can create genuine difficulty, is when you create hard choices, and when you have situations where the players have to do a lot of different things, be inventive, whatever in order to get their chances of success to be reasonable. In fact these sorts of things should NEVER hinge on a single check, which is why 4e so assiduously uses SCs. Why have the player's elaborate and well-considered plan dependent on one check they have a 20% chance of passing? Failing it isn't exciting, its sort of a slap down at that point. All the hard part was getting there.

I'm not saying low-chance-of-success checks can't have a place in the game. As essentially a 'saving throw' there's no compelling reason to use really easy DCs for instance (IE once things have gone pear shaped its fine to toss the players a bone and let them try to fix it with some Hail Mary). You could have different alternative branches of an adventure that could be accessed only by difficult checks too, if you don't mind generating content you won't use. Those branches should not be structured as 'rewards for doing well' however. They should just be interesting possible choices that provide the players with agency. A variation would be the hard-to-access adventure element that requires payment of a resource, that one could have a low-probability gating DC plus a reward (its luck if you get the reward, but as long as you can continue its no worse than any other element of luck).

What you REALLY don't want is the players choosing a course of action, investing resources in it, and then at the end coming up against the locked door that can now only be opened with a low-probability, forcing the inevitable failure to either thwart the mission or force the players to go back and pay their way forward in some other way all over again. I CAN imagine a few cases where you could deliberately set up something like this, to put the party in a pickle maybe, but in that case there need not be any check at all, they just reach a hopeless dead end and need to backtrack.

The point is, the idea that '4e is built around lots of easier checks vs a few really hard ones, so its an easy mode game' is simply fallacious. It rests on a deep misunderstanding of the uses of probability in RPGs.
 

Remove ads

Top