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D&D 5E MCU's Asgardians in 5E D&D terms

Norwegian textual critics of the Norse Eddas and Sagas...
To quote Wikipedia: who? Is this a mainstream view? And how are we defining "god" here, anyway? They had names, personalities, domains, powers, myths, temples, idols, prayers, rituals, and sacrifices. I'm pretty sure that in most people's book, that constitutes a pagan god.

Regarding Idunn who grows the ‘golden apples’, I meant she is of the Dvergar. But when writing it, I had in mind a scholarly speculation relating her to the Jotnar. What is clear is she isnt of the Aesir. The Hrafnagaldr Odins, a late text, describes her as of ‘Alvar kind’ and the ‘youngest of the elder children of Ivaldi’. The simplest interpretation is, her mother is of the Alvar and her father Ivaldi is of the Dvergar, and Idunn herself is a mix of Alvar and Dvergar.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Hrafnagaldr, hence my confusion: this precisely one source we have attesting her lineage describes her as an elf and the child of a dwarf. (Regarding the interpretation of that, remember that the distinction between "elf" and "dwarf" is not always hard-and-fast in Norse folklore -- both may have referred to Ivaldi. And the distinction between "elf" and "god" is likewise not always hard-and-fast -- the poet may have been calling her a goddess.) But like I said earlier in this thread, a single source, written down centuries after the fact no less, is hardly authoritative. Iðunn almost certainly meant different things to different Norsemen at different times and places over the centuries. This link with Ivaldi may be essential to all incarnations of her, or it may be a random line spouted by just this one poet -- we simply cannot say. The fact that no other source connects her with Ivaldi, though, tends to push us towards skepticism. So maybe she was originally something else. Maybe she was a jötunn. But I know of nothing that suggests she could have been; all further scholarly speculation about her that I'm aware of connects her to the Vanir, not the jötnar, on account of the whole plants-and-fertility motif.

But some scholars...
To quote Wikipedia again: who?
 
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In the Norse Eddas, the distinction between Alfar and Dvergar is clear and discrete. Albeit Norse poetry often used ‘kennings’ cryptically reusing the term Alfr as an honorific. In the Voluspa, there is a later interpolation of personal names of Dvergar, that include the element ‘Alf-’, but even in these later times, their identity as Dvergar are clear.

By contrast, the Germanic (Teutonic and Frankish) beliefs had already merged the Alfar and the Dvergar together, long ago. Essentially, the Germans only had the Dvergar (Zwerge), and there was no such thing as an Alfar among the Germans. There are a few vestigial memories of ancient Alfar, such as the etymology for a word for a ‘nightmare’ crediting the Alfar. Plus the Franks preserve the personal name of a King of the Dvergar, ‘Albrich’ ( ≈ Norse Alf-rikr), but who nevertheless is of the Dvergar. Via the French Fae, this Albrich eventually syncretizes into British beliefs morphing into ‘Oberon’, a king of the Fairies, who Shakespeare refers to.
 
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The books that I have on Norse animism are in storage. It is hard tracking down sources online. Nevertheless, even in English scholarship, references to Norse ‘animism’ and Norse ‘shamanism’ are common enough. For example, even the first .pdf I googled across randomly, says this:

"
Compared with Norse religion, Anglo-Saxon pre-Christian religion has been subject to few in-depth
studies, and only a vague image has been pieced together from the scattered written sources and archaeological material (see e.g. Wilson 1992; Herbert 1994; Davidson 1964 and 1982). One of the few scholars who have provided a more detailed view of Anglo-Saxon religion is Stephen Glosecki (1989). Through his examination of written sources and some archaeological material, he has argued that motifs in Anglo-Saxon poetry, charms and artefacts contain ‘reflexes of shamanism’ identifiable from a number of universal traits, such as animism, ecstasy, therapy (healing), shamanic initiation and assistance (from shamanic guardians). Glosecki argued, as Blomkvist (2002) has for Scandinavia, that the ‘widespread nature of this belief [shamanism] … makes it less difficult to credit its presence in Old English than in its absence’ (Glosecki 1989, 79). Shamanism, like a number of other aspects of religion in the pre-Christian north, is more graphically illustrated in the evidence from Norse culture, including early material culture and later writing. It is now clear that great similarities existed between Norse and Sámi religions, particularly regarding sorcery (seiðr), and within this, shamanism (Dag Strömbäck 2000: 196–206; Price 2002, chapter 3; Sanmark 2004, chapter 4.1).

"
pure.uhi .ac.uk/portal/files/1047690/Chapter_8.pdf

In this abstract, an archeologist compares Viking Age metal remains in southern Scandinavia as part of a Norse animistic custom, possibly relating to a similar Sami custom. "Possible links [exist] between aspects of animistic world views. ... This opens up the possibility that not only the Sámi, but even the Old Norse world views contained elements of animistic perspectives." The use of these sites among both Sami and Norse appear to be part of an animistic practice.
tandfonline .com/doi/abs/10.1080/08003831.2015.1029846

The closest thing to a spiritual leader among indigenous Scandinavians is the Volva, a kind of shaman who interacts with nature spirits including Alfar and Jotnar. In the indigenous traditions, there are no priests. They lack temples. The places translated loosely as ‘temples’ are private homes, with a room dedicated to a nature spirit. An exception is a royal temple in Uppsala, but its founders originate from outside of Scandinavia, imported foreign religious beliefs, and Uppsala itself is part of extensive foreign trade connections.


Regarding Ivaldi as of the Jotnar: for example, Wikipedia too mentions this: "In the Old Norse sources, the giant [Jotunn] Þjazi is said to be the son of All-valdi [Harbardsljód 19] and Öl-valdi [Skaldskaparmal 42]. I-valdi may be another form of the name." Whence comes the speculation of Idunn relating to Jotnar. Personally, I prefer Occums Razor. Idunn is the daughter of an Alfr and a Dvergr.

In any case, the Aesir are mortal. They die, even die by old age. They are nature spirits who need other nature spirits to keep them alive. Norse texts describe various kinds of ‘nature spirits’ (Vaettir) from deadly arctic storms (Jotnar) to helpful summer storms (Aesir). People seem more likely to ask the Alfar for help than the Aesir. In animistic cultures, humans and nature spirits are neighborly, often helping each other out, including sharing food.
 
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This thread is about the Marvel Comic Universe. Space aliens. Done.

But whether Marvel superheroes or reallife beliefs about nature spirits, one thing is clear. The D&D ‘gods’ are inappropriate.

To bake the Cleric class setting cosmology into the rules of the game, inherently distorts settings, prejudices the expectations of the players who read these rules, who assume there are gods even where there are none, forces the DMs to constantly contradict the rules, and prevents interesting stories from happening.
 


The books that I have on Norse animism are in storage. It is hard tracking down sources online. Nevertheless, even in English scholarship, references to Norse ‘animism’ and Norse ‘shamanism’ are common enough. For example, even the first .pdf I googled across randomly, says this...
Okay. You will note that these sources frame their statements as speculative, whereas you have consistently been framing your statements as declarative. What you are saying is not consensus among scholars in the field. In fact, very little is. Hard facts about Norse religious practices are rather thin on the ground, and it's probably not a good idea for you to pretend you have more than you do.

The closest thing to a spiritual leader among indigenous Scandinavians is the Volva, a kind of shaman who interacts with nature spirits including Alfar and Jotnar.
Other theories propose that the positions of priest and chieftain were merged at some point in early Germanic culture. For possible evidence of this in the Norse religion, see Odin, and the etymology and usage of the word goði. (Oh, yeah, that's worth mentioning: the Norse actually had the word goð, 'god', for the Æsir, Vanir, et al.) Völur were part of the picture too, of course, but their position is hardly distinctive to Norse culture or even to shamanic cultures in general; witches and seers of various descriptions were all over the place in both pagan and Christian Europe. They seem to have been, as your source puts it, "reflexes of shamanism", but they readily existed as a part of these polytheistic and monotheistic cultures.

In the indigenous traditions, there are no priests. They lack temples.
It is true that the Germanic pagans, both in Scandinavia and elsewhere in Europe, seldom built temples; they preferred to worship in natural places they considered sacred, and seemed to have a particular thing for big old trees. It does not follow from this that they did not worship gods. As for priests, see again the chieftain theory. Chiefs certainly officiated a number of religious rituals.

The places translated loosely as ‘temples’ are private homes, with a room dedicated to a nature spirit.
Hrafnkell Freysgoði (there's that word again) would beg to differ. His hof, which I have no compunction translating as 'temple', was a freestanding structure distinct from his home.

An exception is a royal temple in Uppsala, but its founders originate from outside of Scandinavia, imported foreign religious beliefs, and Uppsala itself is part of extensive foreign trade connections.
Whence do you believe the founders of the Uppsala temple came, and why do you believe this? And since Uppsala was an important political and religious center since at least the 6th Century AD, and probably much earlier, I think it's safe to say that even if the religious beliefs were originally imported, they were sufficiently well established by the Viking Age proper not to be dismissable as "foreign".

Wikipedia too mentions this...
If we're to be taking Wikipedia as a source, then it's surely germane that Wikipedia matter-of-factly describes Thor and company as "gods" and does not even mention any controversy about whether or not they are.

In any case, the Aesir are mortal. They die, even die by old age. They are nature spirits who need other nature spirits to keep them alive.
This does not follow. Why does mortality indicate that they're not "gods"? And if they're not gods, why does it indicate they are "nature spirits"? What is the distinction between "god" and "nature spirit" you think is so important, anyway?

To bake the Cleric class setting cosmology into the rules of the game, inherently distorts settings, prejudices the expectations of the players who read these rules, who assume there are gods even where there are none, forces the DMs to constantly contradict the rules, and prevents interesting stories from happening.
Classes are completely modular. You can play the game without the cleric, or the warlock, or the fighter, or any other class, and nothing in the rules will break. They're not "baked in".
 
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You can also play the cleric as a divine caster without a god who follows a philosophy. The gods in dnd are flavour baked into settings rather than mechanics baked into the cleric class.

Unfortunately, the rules as written of the Cleric class requires the Cleric to worship gods.

It is necessary for the DM to continually contradict the rules as written, when trying to set the mood for a setting where gods are inappropriate.

Moreover, the references to gods saturates the Players Handbook everywhere.

Consulting the Players Handbook spoils the mood.
 

Okay. You will note that these sources frame their statements as speculative, whereas you have consistently been framing your statements as declarative. What you are saying is not consensus among scholars in the field. In fact, very little is. Hard facts about Norse religious practices are rather thin on the ground, and it's probably not a good idea for you to pretend you have more than you do.

Other theories propose that the positions of priest and chieftain were merged at some point in early Germanic culture. For possible evidence of this in the Norse religion, see Odin, and the etymology and usage of the word goði. (Oh, yeah, that's worth mentioning: the Norse actually had the word goð, 'god', for the Æsir, Vanir, et al.) Völur were part of the picture too, of course, but their position is hardly distinctive to Norse culture or even to shamanic cultures in general; witches and seers of various descriptions were all over the place in both pagan and Christian Europe. They seem to have been, as your source puts it, "reflexes of shamanism", but they readily existed as a part of these polytheistic and monotheistic cultures.

It is true that the Germanic pagans, both in Scandinavia and elsewhere in Europe, seldom built temples; they preferred to worship in natural places they considered sacred, and seemed to have a particular thing for big old trees. It does not follow from this that they did not worship gods. As for priests, see again the chieftain theory. Chiefs certainly officiated a number of religious rituals.

Hrafnkell Freysgoði (there's that word again) would beg to differ. His hof, which I have no compunction translating as 'temple', was a freestanding structure distinct from his home.

Whence do you believe the founders of the Uppsala temple came, and why do you believe this? And since Uppsala was an important political and religious center since at least the 6th Century AD, and probably much earlier, I think it's safe to say that even if the religious beliefs were originally imported, they were sufficiently well established by the Viking Age proper not to be dismissable as "foreign".

If we're to be taking Wikipedia as a source, then it's surely germane that Wikipedia matter-of-factly describes Thor and company as "gods" and does not even mention any controversy about whether or not they are.

This does not follow. Why does mortality indicate that they're not "gods"? And if they're not gods, why does it indicate they are "nature spirits"? What is the distinction between "god" and "nature spirit" you think is so important, anyway?

Classes are completely modular. You can play the game without the cleric, or the warlock, or the fighter, or any other class, and nothing in the rules will break. They're not "baked in".

Well obviously, I agree with the school of thought that views the aboriginal Scandinavians interpret the invading Proto-Indo-Euro traditions within the aboriginal animistic worldview.

In other words, the indigenous Scandinavians viewed Thorr as an animistic nature spirit, a summer thunder spirit. Thorr is moreorless identical to way various Native American nations view the Thunderbird as a helpful nature spirit. Indeed, the Scandinavians also have a kind of Thunderbird, a dangerous one that is responsible for arctic blizzards, a Jotunn who took the shape of a vast eagle.

In any case, the penny has dropped. All scholars everywhere are realizing it is an error to assume the indigenous Scandinavians were polytheists.

Many take a cautious approach, realizing the locales in Scandinavia were very different from the locales in Germany, and the situation is complex. Each location needs to be looked at carefully. The best description is to see ancient spiritual traditions as a network of partially overlapping local traditions.

In the north in the Scandinavian peninsula, there is mostly animism. In the south in the Continent, there is mostly polytheism. Places like Denmark and Britain are complex.



Regarding Hrafnkels, the Saga mentions him by name as inventing his own tradition, in light of foreign traditions that were also part of Iceland.
 

Certainly levels 17-20 are considered "epic tier," but we don't know what is beyond that, or at least how WotC will handle it.

Yes we do--it's in the DMG. After 20th level you can get an epic boon every so many XP points. Epic boons are pretty cool, and ability score increases and feats are also allowed in their place.

I for one hope that WotC sticks with this and does not make some sort alternate epic rules. The DMG treatment is about perfect. Continued meaningful advancement (if desired) without piling on more and more levels. And honestly, IMO piling on epic levels, is rarely as fun as it sounds--it's just the same game with ginormous numbers on your sheet vs foes with similarly ginormous numbers on theirs.
 

Unfortunately, the rules as written of the Cleric class requires the Cleric to worship gods.
They only require the cleric to select a domain. The deities themselves have no mechanical presence whatsoever. This is a change from previous editions, of course -- it's almost like they want the cleric to be a broader class.

It is necessary for the DM to continually contradict the rules as written, when trying to set the mood for a setting where gods are inappropriate.
How so? Quote me one rule from the PHB that you have to "continually contradict". And even if there exists such a rule, you're the DM. You can do that. In my campaign the languages are different; I have to continually contradict the rules that say humans know Common, dwarves know Dwarven, etc. I have lost precisely zero minutes of sleep over this contradiction.

Moreover, the references to gods saturates the Players Handbook everywhere.
They really, really don't. I just cracked my PHB at random. Pages 192-193. No mention of gods whatsoever. Let's do it again. Pages 16-17. No mention of gods whatsoever. Let's try a third time. Pages 276-277. You guessed it, no mention of gods whatsoever.
 

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