D&D 5E silver standard

[Zardnaar]

Gold is dense. That's about an 11-cm cube -- not very much. And it's a lot of money. Wikipedia cites a talent of silver as nine man-years of skilled labor. No word on the conversion to a talent of gold, but obviously it's gonna be even more than that.

It was valuable but wages were realy really crappy for the average worker. They had access to tons of gold though in the good old days so to speak. Alexander sacking the Persians, Rome in general, the Spanish main, Mansa Muta etc.

A talent of gold in D&D is 2850gp at 1 sp per day or 36 gold per year its around 70-75 years income for the average D&D labourer. Adventurers are more like minor nobility and later minor royalty in terms of income.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I converted a long time ago myself, just convert to SP as the common coin of the realms. I just do the math GP times 10, this is basically saying / making a SP equal a dollar and by default making an EP equal 5 and GP equal 10.

Just a note and does not add anything: Don't forget that 5e has EP (Electrum) between silver and gold (PHB 143).

 

[mlund]

@mlund: I think you're overthinking things. This is a *fantasy* game, not a real history simulator.

I disagree. I still remember the old days of the Greyhawk supplements and whatnot where you had to deal with actual money-changers charging adventurers a vig for the privilege of turning their ancient coins etc. for "legal" currency you could use in the realm. The system's concerned itself with things like the weight of coins, weight of equipment, daily wages, and cost-of-living expenses since at least the days of AD&D. It's simply done so either poorly, or in conflict with people's Hollywood-inspired delusions about what a Gold Piece looks like.

Of course, you have to draw your suspension of disbelief somewhere. Most of us just tolerate the Hollywood absurdities of torches-in-dungeons and swords cutting chain mail because it helps keep things like combat and lighting abstract and simple. The currency standards and prices are arbitrary, however, and the designers admitted at one point that they kept the prices at GP values for tradition's sake, even though they are utterly absurd. Changing the currency units is simple to do - and even required in various campaign settings like Dragonlance. Prices remain the same and the standard units change from GP to something else (Steel Pieces in Dragonlance, Silver Pieces in a slightly-less-wahoo setting). The cost is basically nil, and the benefit is the silliness of a random laborer or hedge wizard laying out 7 pounds of gold in living expenses ever year (modest lifestyle, 350 days) is somewhat curbed. Seriously, 300 commoners spend as much in a year as the Byzantine Empire (the richest economy in the world) paid in tribute to Attila the Hun.

 

[MG.0]

Of course, you have to draw your suspension of disbelief somewhere. Most of us just tolerate the Hollywood absurdities of torches-in-dungeons and swords cutting chain mail because it helps keep things like combat and lighting abstract and simple. The currency standards and prices are arbitrary, however, and the designers admitted at one point that they kept the prices at GP values for tradition's sake, even though they are utterly absurd. Changing the currency units is simple to do - and even required in various campaign settings like Dragonlance. Prices remain the same and the standard units change from GP to something else (Steel Pieces in Dragonlance, Silver Pieces in a slightly-less-wahoo setting). The cost is basically nil, and the benefit is the silliness of a random laborer or hedge wizard laying out 7 pounds of gold in living expenses ever year (modest lifestyle, 350 days) is somewhat curbed. Seriously, 300 commoners spend as much in a year as the Byzantine Empire (the richest economy in the world) paid in tribute to Attila the Hun.

Torches in dungeons? Hollywood may have characters unrealistically hold torches in their face, but carrying a torch into a dark area is hardly unrealistic. I mean they were invented for a reason, and there's plenty of evidence that ancient native americans used torches to explore large caves.

As for the gold, I don't find it silly at all. At least no more silly than a world filled with flying fire breathing magic lizards. *shrugs*

 

[mlund]

Torches in dungeons? Hollywood may have characters unrealistically hold torches in their face, but carrying a torch into a dark area is hardly unrealistic. I mean they were invented for a reason, and there's plenty of evidence that ancient native americans used torches to explore large caves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY (skip to 4:00 if you want the breakdown on torches in dungeon chambers)

It's pretty cool to learn about the difference between what Hollywood tells you (string mail, studded leather armor, dungeon torches) and how not to kill yourself.

As for the gold, I don't find it silly at all. At least no more silly than a world filled with flying fire breathing magic lizards. *shrugs*

It's just a pet peeve largely because it's very easy to fix and a completely unnecessary disconnect. Dragons are magical and physics-defying by definition. Gold, on the other hand, is both a mundane item and the cornerstone of the game world's economy. Lust for gold (valued because of its rarity) puts people into slavery, drives dragons to pillage the countryside, seeds plots for debtors and scoundrels, and hires armies of mercenaries to topple kingdoms. It's kind of a big deal, and applying gross inflation to it undermines my sense of the setting. Ergo, as asked in the original post - that's why I just swap in a Silver Standard: it helps tone down that problem in my game setting for basically 0 effort.

 

[MG.0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY (skip to 4:00 if you want the breakdown on torches in dungeon chambers)

It's pretty cool to learn about the difference between what Hollywood tells you (string mail, studded leather armor, dungeon torches) and how not to kill yourself.

I've seen a bunch of his videos. They're pretty entertaining (and educational). He's mostly right, but torches WERE used for navigating natural caverns for a long time. Of course Hollywood does stupid stuff with everything, not just torches.

It's just a pet peeve largely because it's very easy to fix and a completely unnecessary disconnect. Dragons are magical and physics-defying by definition. Gold, on the other hand, is both a mundane item and the cornerstone of the game world's economy. Lust for gold (valued because of its rarity) puts people into slavery, drives dragons to pillage the countryside, seeds plots for debtors and scoundrels, and hires armies of mercenaries to topple kingdoms. It's kind of a big deal, and applying gross inflation to it undermines my sense of the setting. Ergo, as asked in the original post - that's why I just swap in a Silver Standard: it helps tone down that problem in my game setting for basically 0 effort.

I prefer the idea of big gold coins, like in the movies. They're more fun. Gold may be mundane, but it isn't something most people see a lot of, thus the fantasy. If you go with the 1st edition measure of 10 coins per pound and assuming pure gold, you can create coins in between the size of a U.S. fifty-cent piece and an Eisenhower silver dollar. That's pretty close to the stereotypical pirate/dragon hoard.


Edit: I'm not advocating a gold standard over a silver one. I think changing the scale of the economy to make gold/platinum rarer is perfectly fine. I'm advocating for large coins over tiny ones. Like these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle

 

[mlund]

I've seen a bunch of his videos. They're pretty entertaining (and educational). He's mostly right, but torches WERE used for navigating natural caverns for a long time.

Large natural caverns with plenty of ventilation? Sure. Medieval crypts, castles, and dungeons? Not so much.

Of course Hollywood does stupid stuff with everything, not just torches.

Viking helmets with horns come to mind.

I prefer the idea of big gold coins, like in the movies. They're more fun.

True, but they are also plastic, just saying.

If you go with the 1st edition measure of 10 coins per pound and assuming pure gold, you can create coins in between the size of a U.S. fifty-cent piece and an Eisenhower silver dollar. That's pretty close to the stereotypical pirate/dragon hoard.

Sure, you just can't carry all that many of them. They'd also cause the stereotypical "treasure chest" of Hollywood design to burst from the weight. You can have chests full of gold coins, but the chests are tiny, which kind of defeats the Hollywood pirate-chest mystique.

I'm not advocating a gold standard over a silver one. I think changing the scale of the economy to make gold/platinum rarer is perfectly fine. I'm advocating for large coins over tiny ones. Like these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle

I like them too. I like seeding treasure hordes with over-weight gold coins or ingots worth 5 or 10 GP each by weight. I also like to save platinum for jewelry / art objects.

Marty Lund

 

[pukunui]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY (skip to 4:00 if you want the breakdown on torches in dungeon chambers)

Good thing D&D has magical, smokeless torches then, eh?

 

[MG.0]

Large natural caverns with plenty of ventilation? Sure. Medieval crypts, castles, and dungeons? Not so much.

Large, fantastic dungeons, not tiny medieval ones. Reality is boring.

Sure, you just can't carry all that many of them. They'd also cause the stereotypical "treasure chest" of Hollywood design to burst from the weight. You can have chests full of gold coins, but the chests are tiny, which kind of defeats the Hollywood pirate-chest mystique.

I like them too. I like seeding treasure hordes with over-weight gold coins or ingots worth 5 or 10 GP each by weight. I also like to save platinum for jewelry / art objects.

Marty Lund

Certainly true about chests. Actually that's part of the beauty of heavy coins...you might get to the dragon's mountain of treasure, but good luck taking it with you. Your best bet is to grab what you can and get the heck out before something even worse shows up.


I particularly like this section of the 1st edition DMG (page 90):

There is no question that the prices and costs of the game are based on
inflationary economy, one where a sudden influx of silver and gold has
driven everything well beyond its normal value. The reasoning behind this
is simple. An active campaign will most certainly bring a steady flow of
wealth into the base area, as adventurers come from successful trips into
dungeon and wilderness. If the economy of the area is one which more
accurately reflects that of medieval England, let us say, where coppers and
silver coins are usual and a gold piece remarkable, such an influx of new
money, even in copper and silver, would cause an inflationory spiral. This
would necessitate you adjusting costs accordingly and then upping
dungeon treasures somewhat to keep pace. If a near-maximum is as-
sumed, then the economics of the area can remain relatively constant, and
the DM will have to adiust costs only for things in demand or short supply
-weapons, oil, holy water, men-at-arms, whatever.
The economic systems of areas beyond the more active campaign areas
can be viably based on lesser wealth only until the stream of loot begins to
pour outwards into them. While it is possible to reduce treasure in these
areas to some extent so as to prolong the period of lower costs, what kind
of a dragon hoard, for example, doesn't have gold and gems? It is simply
more heroic for players to have their characters swaggering around with
pouches full of gems and tossing out gold pieces than it is for them to have
coppers. Heroic fantasy is made of fortunes and king's ransoms in loot
gained most cleverly and bravely and lost in a twinkling by various means
- thievery, gambling, debauchery, gift-giving, bribes, and so forth. The
"reality" AD&D seeks to create through role playing is that of the mythical
heroes such as Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Kothar, Elric, and their
ilk. When treasure is spoken of, it is more stirring when participants know
it to be TREASURE!
You may, of course, adiust any prices and costs as you see fit for your own
milieu. Be careful to observe the effects of such changes on both play
balance and player involvement. If any adverse effects are noted, it is
better to return to the tried and true. It is fantastic and of heroic proportions
so as to match its game vehicle.

 

[mlund]

Good thing D&D has magical, smokeless torches then, eh?

Back in my day the Magic-User cast "Light" on a rock and we liked it, son. If we survived the first couple of encounters with some kobolds we might even save up enough for a lantern. You kids today with your alchemists fire and your sunrods and your VHS cassette tapes.

Large, fantastic dungeons, not tiny medieval ones. Reality is boring.

The original "large, fantastic dungeons" were still made up of a bunch of 10x10 corridors and 20x20 rooms with an orc and a chest - just a slew of them strung together. I'm not sure whether the orc-stink or the torch-smoke would kill you first, though.

Marty Lund