D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

[GMforPowergamers]

Telling a player "you feel intimidated" or "he persuaded you" is dictating what a character thinks. And I just believe that belongs exclusively to the player.

there seems to be the disconnect for me. If you always are 100% in control of how you feel then the world doesn't feel real. The intimidateing enemy wont always feel intimadting out of game (because you misunder stand, or are just in a different mood out of game) the idea of the skill role is to help you get into the character, not force you to think or act some way.

As a player if I tell the DM I intimidate the guard, and I win the roll I don't get to add "He lets me by" because that's out of bounds... I can try in game to get him too, and the DM may let it, but the skill doesn't give me control.

As a DM if I tell the player the guard intimidated him, and I win the roll I don't get to add "so you back down afraid" beceuse that's out of bounds... I can try to get the guard in game to do so, and the player may go with it, but the skill doesn't give me control

succeeding in the intimate check is the same as any other action "X happened, now react as your character would."

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

wow this exploded while I was gone. I think we can all agree there are a lot of ways to play and it seems like different parts of our hobby all have different ways to think of the rules...

 

[JediGamemaster]

Out of curiosity was it a skill roll, or an innate spell-like ability like Fear? And what was the mechanical result of being intimidated?

Because there isn't a pre-determined mechanical effect of being intimidated. If there were then I would say, "Ok, we need to roll for that." But it's purely a roleplaying effect. I don't understand how one can use a dice-rolling mechanic to dictate a roleplaying result.

It works for a player to use it on an NPC because again the DM has perfect knowledge of both the PCs and the NPCs capabilities.

It was about half way through the game we were in a big orc encampment and just killed like a dozen of them, and he walks in with no weapons and yells in common something weird about his prowess then the DM rolled an intimidate check and the number he got he told us to make a will save that DC... he gave the ranger a bonus because he had favored enemy...about half the table made the DC (myself included) the other half didn't... we all just ran with it... those of us intimidated tried to rp being intimidated, the rest of us laughed it off... the game was tons of fun...

 

[Hriston]

Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion are the skills you can use to get a monster or NPC to do what you want them to do. As such, they do not apply to PCs.

An apt analogy from earlier editions is the Morale check. Morale checks only applied to monsters and NPCs because one of the main premises of the game is that the players assume the role of their characters, and are in full control of the decision of whether to flee the battle or not. NPCs, on the other hand are under the control of a DM who is supposed to be impartial. Delegating the decisions of NPCs to the result of a die roll is a tool for maintaining DM impartiality.

In a wargame, such as Chainmail from which D&D is derived, the players are in control of an army of what are essentially NPCs. The players assume the roles of the armies' commanders, and Morale checks are used to determine whether the figures on the battlefield comply with their commanders orders under extreme circumstances. The inclusion of PCs as a feature marks the difference between a wargame and a roleplaying game.

The desired result of a social skill check is that an NPC will comply with what is requested. For PCs, on the other hand, that's determined by the players, and no amount of skill can force a PC to do something without the player's consent. That's the foundation of roleplaying.

 

[JediGamemaster]

Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion are the skills you can use to get a monster or NPC to do what you want them to do. As such, they do not apply to PCs.
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can someone find me this rule in the books

 

[JediGamemaster]

ok so I see this in the book:

A Charisma check might arise when you try to influence or entertain others, when you try to make an impression or tell a convincing lie, or when you are navigating a tricky social situation. The Deception, Intimidation, Performance, and Persuasion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Charisma checks. Deception. Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone’s suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie

Intimidation. When you attempt to influence someone through overt threats, hostile actions, and physical violence, the DM might ask you to make a Charisma (Intimidation) check. Examples include trying to pry information out of a prisoner, convincing street thugs to back down from a confrontation, or using the edge of a broken bottle to convince a sneering vizier to reconsider a decision.

Performance. Your Charisma (Performance) check determines how well you can delight an audience with music, dance, acting, storytelling, or some other form of entertainment.

Persuasion. When you attempt to influence someone or a group of people with tact, social graces, or good nature, the DM might ask you to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check. Typically, you use persuasion when acting in good faith, to foster friendships, make cordial requests, or exhibit proper etiquette. Examples of persuading others include convincing a chamberlain to let your party see the king, negotiating peace between warring tribes, or inspiring a crowd of townsfolk.

Other Charisma Checks. The DM might call for a Charisma check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:
Find the best person to talk to for news, rumors, and gossip
Blend into a crowd to get the sense of key topics of conversation

I can't find anything that says "This only works from players to NPCs" or "NPCs can't use these skills" or anything like it,

 

[Guest 6801328]

I always let the players decide. I tell them he seems to be telling the truth. I do this for Deception and Persuasion. If a player is intimidated, he'll get the frightened condition until he saves against the enemies intimidation check. That's how I run it.

Does that mean every PC should try Intimidate at the start of every combat? Because the Frightened condition is actually pretty powerful, so you may as well try, right?

 

[JediGamemaster]

Does that mean every PC should try Intimidate at the start of every combat? Because the Frightened condition is actually pretty powerful, so you may as well try, right?

kinda like a showdown at high noon or an injitsu duel that could work for a concept... but it would take a group that really wanted to do that to make it work

 

[Guest 6801328]

ok so I see this in the book:

I can't find anything that says "This only works from players to NPCs" or "NPCs can't use these skills" or anything like it,

Well, it's all written 2nd person ("you") and this is the Player's handbook, not the NPC's handbook, so....

But more seriously, I agree with pukuni about interpretation but disagree you are doing it "wrong". Just differently.

 

[Guest 6801328]

kinda like a showdown at high noon or an injitsu duel that could work for a concept... but it would take a group that really wanted to do that to make it work

Not according to the interpretation he posted. He said that a successful Intimidate check imposes the Frightened condition. So it's basically a free Fear spell usable at will by all PCs and NPCs. A rogue with expertise could really wreak havoc with this.