D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

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One of my favourite things in 5e is the section on PC gender. I won't repeat the entire quote, because I don't have a PHB on me, but it amounts to "you can be male, female, transgender... and your sexuality doesn't matter. It's good. Be who you want to be". This is an awesome thing, and I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised.

I think you've failed to adequately summarised the wording or intention of the section on sex in the PH. The actual paragraph is more nuanced and considered;

"You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behaviour. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface. You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide"

The book tackles a difficult issue head on and, despite a little bit of self-contradiction (not conforming to your broader culture's expectations of sex, gender and sexual behaviour presents a perfect opportunity to introduce some special hindrances to the player, in my view) it does a good job of this precisely because it doesn't say 'sexuality/gender doesn't matter'.

I would have quite a serious problem with the sentiment expressed in your wording, because it seems to provide the player with a justification for telling the DM how the societies of his world work with regard to sexual identity. This kind of world building is best done collaboratively, in my opinion, but ultimate creative control needs to rest with the DM if he's to have the opportunity to work themes into the narrative of the campaign.

It would be unacceptable to me for a player to declare 'the PH says I can be a Drow Cleric/Warlock who worships Torm and has a pact with Asmodeus, so your world has to accommodate that' just as it would be for them to say 'The PH says I can be whatever sex and sexual orientation I please and it doesn't matter so gender identity must be a non-issue in your game world".

The PH says neither of these things, and I want to highlight the distinction between what you've implied and what's in the book, because 5E is actually very good on encouraging players to think about choices like this for their characters and work with the DM to create a more engaging, complex game world, and this should not be confused with any injunction which may be in the book about player etiquette at the table which, one must assume, is directed at children who play the game since being told to treat your friends respectfully in a gaming product as an adult is rather patronising.

Of course, for kick-in-the-door style play the whole subject is moot, my point assumes a gaming style in which plot, character development and theme are present and important elements in the campaign. If you just want to roll some toons and run a smash n' grab, I can't see why you'd care any more about your character's sexual orientation than you would about their political or religious views.

That said, I also find it interesting that someone raised an objection to the mention of gender identity on the basis of not wanting any non PG13 content (by which they meant sexual references) at the table because it would get in the way of enjoying the mindless gratuitous violence that's inherent in the system, for want of a better term.

Of course the rules have always constrained the worlds of D&D to some extent; if you don't want a game world in which there are interventionist, theistic deities you've got considerable revision work to do on the core spell lists and mechanical assumptions about magic. Like a lot of DMs these are the things about D&D I love to hate, the tropes we all subvert for humour or because we see things differently. I've been glad to see a subtle but important erosion of the alignment system's vice-grip on the system's capacity to incorporate low fantasy settings in 5E, that's a trend I definitely want to see go further.

Questions of sexual identity, gender role in society and sex in general can be very interesting to explore through the medium of RPGs and I'm pleased that 5E doesn't overly simplify these things as a design decision, quite the opposite. In roleplaying we're free to explore aspects of the human condition which we might not find appealing if presented with them in the real world, such as racism, slavery, religious fanaticism, fascist or authoritarian governments and so and so forth. Exploring these things aren't for everyone, but I'd hate to see 5E excise the possibility of exploring any of them in service of producing something uncontroversial and politically correct. We invest more time and effort in our recreation than video gamers, I think we have a right to expect products which can accommodate more sophisticated tastes, and 5E allows room for that by continuing the long tradition of giving players and DMs ultimate authority to play 'their' D&D, not 'the' D&D.
 
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It always seems weird to me that people think a trans character is less PG13 than a cis character. Unless one of them has a lot more sex than the other, they should be pretty similar.
 

It always seems weird to me that people think a trans character is less PG13 than a cis character. Unless one of them has a lot more sex than the other, they should be pretty similar.

True enough. When I say my games (group 2 & 3 anyway) are PG, I mean that NPC sexual orientation or spouse gender isn't brought up unless it is relevant to the storyline.
 

There is no scientific reason to believe that. The sexual habits of amoral species certainly doesn't support it as any kind of given.

No scientific reason, other than the current body of literature looking at the interplay of genes, epigenetics, and hormonal flux during fetal development and how they influence sexual orientation and gender identity prior to birth. Try again. The fine details are still in development, but it seems clear at this point that it's largely or entirely biological rather than social, and fixed in early development (though social pressure may influence the expression of those innate traits).

We see a fairly consistent percentage of gay male rams for instance, and they certainly don't have religious morals influencing their behavior. We see an interesting correlation in some fine structure of their brains as well versus hetero examples. Jump species you see primarily hetero behavior but everything else you can think of shows up as well, with biology rather than religion playing it all out.
 

It seems like some(SOME) of the proponents for Homosexuals and Transgender's (as well as others) want the game not only open to their orientation but for it to be forced on other peoples tables as well. The game IS open to those types of orientation IF you desire it.

It is perfectly fine to never have it enter your game as well.

Each of us includes what they wish into our games and it's always been this way. Back in the AD&D days I knew one DM who made Strahd von Zarovich a women! He was actually Tatyana who had been infected with vampirism when he(the real Strahd) had attacked the castle and killed Sergei. Tatyana destroyed Strahd and then became him.

The point is it's everyone's right to have or not have whatever orientation they want in their games. If you are a player in someone else's game you have every right to speak up and talk to the DM and others if what is brought to the table doesn't suit you. If that doesn't make the table acceptable to you, you have every right to not play at that table.

Heck,start your own game and include whatever you like!

Sexual orientation, political beliefs and religious views are not things you have a right to experience at the D&D table. You do have every right to include them at your table and find players who find that worthwhile.

Also just to be honest. I do include some of those orientations myself from time to time at my own table but still keep it at a G/PG13 rating. I only do so however with players I am sure are ok with that. If I am unsure I don't bring it up at all. Seeing as I play with the same people 99% of the time though...it's as the story needs.

You know I reread that and agree even more. Sexual orientation isn't something I find fitting at my table other than in the most basic of ways. Heterosexual or something else it doesn't matter. I find characters trying to pick up sexual partners in the Inn's or brothels or even going home to their wives all things that they should keep to themselves for the most part. Kinda like one line note if they feel they need to include it. (Bramstoke is happily married to Heimdal) is absolutely fine and even gives me a adventure hook at some point!

I tired long ago of players role playing Date for Gold and Adventure!, at my table.
 
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The only change this has meant for our group was whenever anything sexually siggestive at all, homo/hetero/bi/etc, is that one, or another of us quietly, and very seriously say "5e compliant" and move on. One of our longest term players, who's been gaming with us since - e-gads - 1985ish? Came out about two years into gaming with us. Didn't change a thing.
 


The study your news article points to doesn't say what you seem to think it says. They inbred fifty strains of fruit flies, none of whom reached fixation for homosexual behavior (probably none of whom even approached fixation), and compared the more-homosexual lines to the less-homosexual lines looking for differences among them, specifically for differences that support one of two possible explanations for non-zero prevalence of SSB. It's not even in question for these researchers that SSB imposes a fitness penalty--they're trying to find a biological mechanism that lets it exist at all in the face of Darwinian selection, even at low prevalence. SSB is still not normative even among the inbred fruit fly lines that Hoskins, Ritchie, and Bailey examined, and in the wild prevalence remains low. Their results support my contention: there is no species in the world for which fertile pairings are not the norm.

Quoting the abstract with emphasis in bold:

'The evolutionary maintenance of same-sex sexual behaviour (SSB) has received increasing attention because it is perceived to be an evolutionary paradox. The genetic basis of SSB is almost wholly unknown in non-human animals, though this is key to understanding its persistence. Recent theoretical work has yielded broadly applicable predictions centred on two genetic models for SSB: overdominance and sexual antagonism. Using Drosophila melanogaster, we assayed natural genetic variation for male SSB and empirically tested predictions about the mode of inheritance and fitness consequences of alleles influencing its expression. We screened 50 inbred lines derived from a wild population for male–male courtship and copulation behaviour, and examined crosses between the lines for evidence of overdominance and antagonistic fecundity selection. Consistent variation among lines revealed heritable genetic variation for SSB, but the nature of the genetic variation was complex. Phenotypic and fitness variation was consistent with expectations under overdominance, although predictions of the sexual antagonism model were also supported. We found an unexpected and strong paternal effect on the expression of SSB, suggesting possible Y-linkage of the trait. Our results inform evolutionary genetic mechanisms that might maintain low but persistently observed levels of male SSB in D. melanogaster, but highlight a need for broader taxonomic representation in studies of its evolutionary causes.'

Ref:http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1809/20150429

Translation: "we might have a tentative explanation for why SSB prevalence is above zero in D. melanogaster, but we're not sure." This study supports what I said in post #442. Obviously, because what I said in #442 is a truism. It's not even controversial.
 
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in 2e, TSR was trying to be more politically correct and relabeled demons and devils baatezu and tanaari. 25 years later you can play a half demon warlock of Mephistopheles, but people are still debating whether two characters of the same sex could be attracted to each other? Give me a break.

IMO, "Baatezu, Tarari'i, and Yugoloth" is better and far more interesting than "Demon, devil, and daemon."

Seriously, "daemon"?!? What is this, UNIX D&D? That's what happens when you try to use generic terms for specific creatures, and you run out of generic terms but you have another idea that needs a generic name.

5E reverted to Demons and Devils but oddly it kept Yugoloths instead of Daemons. At my table, Baatezu still refer to themselves as Baatezu, and the terms "demon" and "devil" get interchangeably applied to Tanari'i, Baatezu, Mind Flayers, and Tyrannosaurs.
 

Darwin disagrees. There is no species in the world for which fertile pairings are not the norm. If there were, that species would no longer be a species in the world.

To be more specific: horses can breed with mules to produce infertile donkeys, but it's not the norm. If horses were genetically predisposed to preferentially seek out mules to breed with instead of other horses, every subsequent generation would have fewer horses with that trait. From a Darwinian perspective you can simply quantify it as a trait with a fitness penalty akin to infertility.

Darwin is dead, but I know what you mean. Normal modern people just use "evolution", just like we don't call physics "Newtonics".

Nitpick aside, you're wrong. Many species exhibit homosexual or bisexual behavior, and nothing bad happens to their species. In fact, in nearly every species that isn't endangered, it's totally fine if only some individuals make babies, not to mention that bisexuals can produce offspring just fine, and in many species it looks like individuals that are otherwise homosexual will occasionally mate with the opposite sex, even if only when the local population gets low for whatever reason.
There is even evidence that homosexuality is evolutionarily beneficial, as it acts as a governor on population increase rates, but with the behavior I already pointed out, doesn't necessarily stop rates from increasing again if needed.

No scientific reason, other than the current body of literature looking at the interplay of genes, epigenetics, and hormonal flux during fetal development and how they influence sexual orientation and gender identity prior to birth. Try again. The fine details are still in development, but it seems clear at this point that it's largely or entirely biological rather than social, and fixed in early development (though social pressure may influence the expression of those innate traits).

We see a fairly consistent percentage of gay male rams for instance, and they certainly don't have religious morals influencing their behavior. We see an interesting correlation in some fine structure of their brains as well versus hetero examples. Jump species you see primarily hetero behavior but everything else you can think of shows up as well, with biology rather than religion playing it all out.

You seem to have misunderstood what I said, or what I was referring to. There is no scientific basis for the idea that heterosexuality is the default. It may be the statistical norm, but in humans even that isn't a sure thing, since stigma and recent history of violent homophobia makes it impossible to trust the numbers on that, especially when it comes to the number of bisexuals, since all data on the subject involves admiring to a sexual orientation other than heterosexual. In fact, bisexuals are almost certainly more numerous than polling shows, since they face biphobia even within the community for which we are part of the damned acronym. I try not to complain tho, since it's not nearly as bad for us as it is for trans folk.

Anyway, bi and homosexual behavior seems to be perfectly normal in a number of species, and there's no scientific evidence for a "default", because there are no shared environmental triggers for a creature exhibiting homosexual or bisexual characteristics, or any other indicator that it isn't just a normal part of biological behavior.
 

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Also just to be honest. I do include some of those orientations myself from time to time at my own table but still keep it at a G/PG13 rating. I only do so however with players I am sure are ok with that. If I am unsure I don't bring it up at all. Seeing as I play with the same people 99% of the time though...it's as the story needs.

You know I reread that and agree even more. Sexual orientation isn't something I find fitting at my table other than in the most basic of ways. Heterosexual or something else it doesn't matter. I find characters trying to pick up sexual partners in the Inn's or brothels or even going home to their wives all things that they should keep to themselves for the most part. Kinda like one line note if they feel they need to include it. (Bramstoke is happily married to Heimdal) is absolutely fine and even gives me a adventure hook at some point!

I tired long ago of players role playing Date for Gold and Adventure!, at my table.

First off, let me just say "your game, your standards." As long as you and your group are enjoying the game, keep doin' what you're doin'.

That said, I have never been able to wrap my mind around a standard that celebrates a "hero" that slaughters "bad" guys by the dozens, often by describing in delighted detail the gore splatter of a critical hit, while at the same time finding that hero's trip to the bordello to negotiate the sale of naked time to be an inappropriate topic. D&D is a game where death and dismemberment are commonplace... if you can handle that, then a PC taking an NPC to bed in order to get info or whatnot (James Bond style) shouldn't be too awkward, in my opinion. But hey, if your group doesn't want that icky naughty sexy stuff to get in the way of their good old fashioned wholesome violence, my opinion is immaterial.
 

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