SCAG Thread

[Tia Nadiezja]

I'm not sure I agree with all of those, but Ainulindalion since you have the timeline and responsibilities down, I would ask how should the Admins fix the perceived problem, noting of course that we are still not employees and have no power to get product early, change release dates or make announcements on things we don't control?

You can't. Most of the problems with the actual rules don't happen at the AL level; they happen at the WotC level.

In other words... the job you have is terrible. You get to spend a pile of time listening to people complain about things that they feel like you should be able to fix (and, for some of them, you absolutely should be able to fix them!) and you can't fix those things, and you don't even get paid for it.

But you're the ones who are here, on the forums, because WotC's people have thrown you to the wolves, and I'm so very sorry that's what's ended up happening. You're the ones who actually interact with the community, so you get the community's ire when something doesn't work, then all you can do with that ire is pass it up the chain. I absolutely get how frustrating that is. I couldn't do it - well, I could, but I'd have to quit my paying job because I certainly don't have the patience to do both, and then I would starve. Bad scene all around, there.

This gets fixed by the people with the power to fix it showing up and listening and fixing it. The only things the AL staff can do are to listen, respond with empathy rather than dismissiveness, and pass things up the chain - with some urgency, given that the system is broken.

I have made suggestions on fixes to particular things - most notably, a fairly straightforward fix to the problems with the story origin system (instead of tossing out everything every season, keep a certain amount of noncore material and phase things out as sufficient new material is produced to replace them - accomplishes the same goal with substantially less restrictions and nothing like the absurdity of Season 3's total lack of extra options), but they aren't suggestions that are within the power of the AL staff to enact, which is awful.

 

[darjr]

Phasing options out won't work unless adventures, purchased and encounters and non encounters are also phased out.

 

[Tia Nadiezja]

Phasing options out won't work unless adventures, purchased and encounters and non encounters are also phased out.

I'm not sure how that's the case.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

... and nothing like the absurdity of Season 3's total lack of extra options), but they aren't suggestions that are within the power of the AL staff to enact, which is awful.

From my perspective I'm not sure why each season needs to have 'extra options'. I'm on my 4th AL PC this year and I'm not even close to plumbing the various options presented thus far that interest me. For many players simplicity is a hallmark of 5e. I get that more options equals more opportunities for people to play character concepts that excite them, but the game is the thing for me, not an endless torrent of yet more crunchy bits.

Now we have the SCAG, which I think is an excellent bit of expository work that also shows an amazing amount of restraint and finesse with the options they provide in fleshing out the SC. Odds are good that many of these will become ever-green, since the SC is an integral location for each season of AL. Can't say for sure, but we'll see.

My take is that the least of AL's problems is how they approach the different seasons from a character creation perspective. There are bigger fish to fry, like making sure stores are well supported, the DMs who actually run the games are kept happy and that game play remains enjoyable. OotA has challenged this a bit, IMHO, because it's not very amenable to Encounters (drop in/out, varying party members from week to week, rapid encounter strength escalation, etc). But that's a topic for another thread...

 

[Pauper]

Odds are good that many of these will become ever-green, since the SC is an integral location for each season of AL. Can't say for sure, but we'll see.

I'll agree with this as far as the setting information in the first two-thirds of the book goes; it makes sense to me to allow characters from any season to worship any of the deities listed in the book, or to allow a character who takes the Far Traveller background to use the info about various far-flung locations described in the book to inform their understanding of that character's home region.

With respect to the rules content in the back third of the book, though, I think if the WotC team made the announcement that the material was usable in any season, or even in multiple seasons going forward, it would be a vote of no-confidence in the admins' 'storyline season' concept -- this is literally the first chance that WotC has to demonstrate what the restricting of rules material to specific storyline seasons is intended to do, and if the decision is made to basically short-circuit the process by allowing players to combo-up rules items from the PH, Elemental Evil Player's Guide, and SCAG, it would be a bad sign for the idea that rules elements should be 'firewalled' to prevent abuse, or even the idea that preventing abuse is something the campaign should be concerned with.

It may seem hyperbolic, but I consider the idea of a genasi swordmage with Greenflame Blade to be the canary in the coal mine with respect to limiting abuse and discouraging optimization in Adventurers League -- if the upcoming announcement allows that combination, I think it will prove to be a mistake of significant proportion, not for the combination itself, but for what it says about how the people at the top of the food chain view the campaign.

--
Pauper

 

[sigfile]

With respect to the rules content in the back third of the book, though, I think if the WotC team made the announcement that the material was usable in any season, or even in multiple seasons going forward, it would be a vote of no-confidence in the admins' 'storyline season' concept -- this is literally the first chance that WotC has to demonstrate what the restricting of rules material to specific storyline seasons is intended to do, and if the decision is made to basically short-circuit the process by allowing players to combo-up rules items from the PH, Elemental Evil Player's Guide, and SCAG, it would be a bad sign for the idea that rules elements should be 'firewalled' to prevent abuse, or even the idea that preventing abuse is something the campaign should be concerned with.

I prefer to consider it a sign of flexibility.

This is a book specific to the Realms (with a scope well beyond the Sword Coast) with a section of storyline-agnostic options tailored to Realms-based player characters. It is the 5E Guide to the Forgotten Realms. If it makes sense to include anything post-PHB as an evergreen resource for an ongoing campaign set in the Realms, this is it.

 

[kalani]

As an educated guess, when the announcement comes, I expect to see something to the effect of:

Allowed Rules (Rage of Demons or Season 4, p3)
As per the Player's Guide p3 plus:

• Sword Coast Adventurers Guide (all rules except winged tieflings).

Being a Dungeon Master (Optional Rules, p10)
As per the player's guide p10 plus:

• Sword Coast Adventurers Guide (Chapters 1 and 2)

I expect that the race, class, and background options will be specific to a single story origin, while the DM material will simply be added to the optional rules for the Dungeon Master (and be applicable as an ever-green option).

It is also possible that the following entry might be added to all story origins as an evergreen option (but I doubt it):

• Sword Coast Adventurers Guide (Chapter 1: Faerunian, Dwarven, Elven, Drow, Gnomish, and Orc Pantheons only).

 

[Pauper]

This is a book specific to the Realms (with a scope well beyond the Sword Coast) with a section of storyline-agnostic options tailored to Realms-based player characters. It is the 5E Guide to the Forgotten Realms. If it makes sense to include anything post-PHB as an evergreen resource for an ongoing campaign set in the Realms, this is it.

The problem is that you can make the same argument (and I'm sure someone has) about the Elemental Evil Player's Guide -- Princes of the Apocalypse also takes place entirely within the Forgotten Realms, at least as far as Adventurers League is concerned. If you're going to allow SCAG as an 'evergreen' option because it is applicable Realms-wide, then why not the EEPG? Why not everything WotC publishes for the Realms? At that point, one of the major reasons to have storyline seasons becomes moot, and the concept fails, not because it was a bad idea, but because the powers-that-be never really supported it.

--
Pauper

 

[kalani]

It is possible that the story origin mechanic may be abandoned in the future (if the reasons for it's inception never pan out). As a rule, players tend to favor decisions to loosen unnecessary restrictions more than decisions to impose additional (yet necessary) restrictions after the fact. The program is still in its infancy after all. Numerous players complained about the endless procession of banlist and errata updates in LFR, and complained with each and every addition to that list as it impacted their existing characters unfairly (in their opinion), despite the fact that their character builds were incredibly disruptive or OP.

It got tot the point where players and DMs on the forums alike cautioned players about making combo's that appeared "too good to be true", as such combo's would inevitably find themselves in the crosshairs of an errata/update, and that such players should expect that their favorite combo would be hit with a nerf-hammer in the coming weeks/months. The frequent updates also annoyed players who weren't using the combo's in a broken way, as it often nerfed the less-optimized builds as well, or even the options use as intended. It also created an envrionment of hostility and competitiveness, in which optimizers had an "optimize or go home" elitist mentality toward casual LFR gamers, as well as an arms race with designers (which hedged out new players and casuals alike, who could not keep up with the scaling difficulty of adventures).

Personally, I hail the decision to introduce story origins, especially after the debacle with the LFR campaign and the problems associated with its "kitchen sink" ideology. In a year or two, we should have a much better understanding of whether the decision was overly restrictive, or necessary (but premature). If the story origin mechanic was introduced in the 3.5 or 4E era's, it would have been viewed as a godsend. Only time will tell, if it turns out to be a good thing for the 5E era or not (as WotC has gone in a completely different design direction than in previous editions - outsourcing products and having a much slower release schedule than even in the 4E days).

 

[sigfile]

The problem is that you can make the same argument (and I'm sure someone has) about the Elemental Evil Player's Guide -- Princes of the Apocalypse also takes place entirely within the Forgotten Realms, at least as far as Adventurers League is concerned. If you're going to allow SCAG as an 'evergreen' option because it is applicable Realms-wide, then why not the EEPG? Why not everything WotC publishes for the Realms? At that point, one of the major reasons to have storyline seasons becomes moot, and the concept fails, not because it was a bad idea, but because the powers-that-be never really supported it.

I said the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is both Realms-wide and story origin agnostic. In a way that the EEPG explicitly isn't.

I believe we have a disconnect in how we're picturing the SCAG. I see it as the campaign guide we should have had at release (State of the Realms! Deities of the Realms! Realms-specific character options!). You see it as the first of many splatbooks.


Edit: "story origin," not "setting." Words are hard.