Where is the National Guard?

[Maxperson]

yup.

That would be part of item 2 on the checklist. If I was a cop and my boss told me to go up there and ask them to leave or be arrested, I would be worried about my safety.

That intimidation is why the cop boss would be wary to send somebody up there in the first place.

These Terrorists haven't done violence yet, but the threat and intimidation is there.


What sucks about these terrorists is that their cause is about "Government bullying". So anything the government does in response to defend itself or reclaim its land will be used as propaganda against it.

Threat =/= terrorism. Intimidation =/= terrorism. People have incorrectly shifted the meaning of what it means to be a terrorist until it has nearly lost its meaning. Heck, if it relies on politics now, Muslim extremists are no longer capable of terrorism. Religion fuels their cause, not politics.

 

[Eltab]

Terrorism is a violent means to a political end.

Only part of the truth. Terrorism includes targeting civilians on purpose.

The idea behind terrorism is that the survivors and witnesses (with TV, millions of them) will start telling their elected politicians to do what YOU want.

 

[Janx]

Well, it isn't impossible that it could happen. Pretty unlikely though.

I would chuckle if they went out that quietly though, for all their bluster and posturing. Right now, the ball is in there court. They aren't harming anyone physically, so any violent or overly forceful measure to dig them out of there is only going to play to their hand.

Ending this quietly is one of the best ways this could end, without giving any credence to their ideology. I certainly like the thoughts of just encircling the building and starving them out. It would certainly fall under the idea of a modern siege:

Modern sieges are more commonly the result of smaller hostage, militant, or extreme resisting arrest situations.

I think we can chalk this under extreme resisting arrest situations, as force has been promised if force is used. Until they are willing to come out, any attempt to remove them will probably be considered a use of force.

I think we agree on this. The bad guys are trying to instigate trouble.

Best response is to not feed them what they want.

 

[Maxperson]

Only part of the truth. Terrorism includes targeting civilians on purpose.

The idea behind terrorism is that the survivors and witnesses (with TV, millions of them) will start telling their elected politicians to do what YOU want.

Right. Fear and intimidation are the methods used by design to get what you want from the populace. Simply causing some fear and intimidation to some people for other reasons is not enough to be terrorism. These guys holed up right now are not doing it to try and scare the populace into capitulation.

 

[Eltab]

...in the next sentences that you cut off when you quoted me...

That wasn't _him_; that was ENWorld's reply-with-quote feature.
If there is a way to create a quote of a quote (so I can pick up a conversation) on this site, I haven't figured it out yet.

 

[Eltab]

These guys holed up right now are not doing it to try and scare the populace into capitulation.

As mentioned above, the best move would be to block all access in / out except for porta-potties. Most of the guys inside will get hungry / thirsty / cold / wet / other uncomfy, and start drifting away. When only the 'core' people are left, open discussions on how they can go home since nothing is getting accomplished. Maybe throw them a bone during the talks: commute the ranchers' sentences to Time Served.

Calling this act terrorism is quite foolish: these guys are out in the countryside near to NOBODY.
The most likely political desire I can see from them is the creation of "Just Us" County.

 

[billd91]

Threat =/= terrorism. Intimidation =/= terrorism. People have incorrectly shifted the meaning of what it means to be a terrorist until it has nearly lost its meaning. Heck, if it relies on politics now, Muslim extremists are no longer capable of terrorism. Religion fuels their cause, not politics.

You might want to study up on your Muslim extremists. The axes they're grinding are extremely political. Always have been.

 

[tuxgeo]

OPB reports that the Bundy bunch is saying they'll leave peacefully if the local community asks them to.

In related news, the Hammond men (convicted of arson) have reported back to prison as expected. They still haven't claimed the Bundy militia is speaking for them; rather, they've tried to distance themselves from the Bundys.

 

[Maxperson]

You might want to study up on your Muslim extremists. The axes they're grinding are extremely political. Always have been.

Any politics involved is incidental. The primary motivator for everything they do is religion. What political statements they take have religion at the heart. They hate us "infidels" because religion. They hate each other because differences in interpreting their religion.

 

[Sacrosanct]

As mentioned above, the best move would be to block all access in / out except for porta-potties. Most of the guys inside will get hungry / thirsty / cold / wet / other uncomfy, and start drifting away. When only the 'core' people are left, open discussions on how they can go home since nothing is getting accomplished. Maybe throw them a bone during the talks: commute the ranchers' sentences to Time Served.

Calling this act terrorism is quite foolish: these guys are out in the countryside near to NOBODY.
The most likely political desire I can see from them is the creation of "Just Us" County.

At some point, people need to be held accountable for their crimes. The feds completely backed off in Nevada, and look what happened. It embolden them to go even further and do this. They committed a crime knowingly, and should be held accountable