bedir than
Full Moon Storyteller
Several of the photographic examples meant to show that Strength is agile are of acrobatics, which by RAW is a Dexterity check
D&D 5E Strength is agile
Yaarel
He Mage
By the way, in the Original Post, all of the images of people in a still shot of a handstand, are not simply doing a handstand, but are doing a ‘handstand pushup’. These body pushups are extremely difficult. I find it remarkable to see women athletes that are able to do them effectively. These body pushups are a prerequisite for most of the ‘acrobatic’ movements that locomote bodyweight.
Because most people dont regularly walk on their hands, most people are simply not strong enough to keep balance while doing body pushups. But, once a person is sufficiently strong enough, then the same balance that happens while standing and walking, also naturally happens while moving on ones hands.
Because most people dont regularly walk on their hands, most people are simply not strong enough to keep balance while doing body pushups. But, once a person is sufficiently strong enough, then the same balance that happens while standing and walking, also naturally happens while moving on ones hands.
Salamandyr
Adventurer
On the one hand, I'm in complete agreement with the OP; Speed comes from power, and power comes from brawn. Dexterity is actually an apt description of "dexterity". A dextrous person is great at needlepoint. An agile person is great at dodging thrown spears.
You can't be agile until you are at least strong enough to throw around your body weight under control.
However, this is a losing battle. Dexterity as a sub for agility is so ingrained into D&D I don't think it can be changed, and most people wouldn't want to anyway.
Just think of it this way; D&D rules are a model of reality. All models have necessary breaks with reality. A more complex model (like Rolemaster for instance) may model reality more accurately, but, then you have to deal with that complexity. D&D's model works "good enough".
I just suffice by rigidly enforcing Strength (Athletics)'s role in climbing, and jumping. An acrobat who neglects strength is going to be a poor one if he wants to anything more than tumble across the ground and not fall down.
You can't be agile until you are at least strong enough to throw around your body weight under control.
However, this is a losing battle. Dexterity as a sub for agility is so ingrained into D&D I don't think it can be changed, and most people wouldn't want to anyway.
Just think of it this way; D&D rules are a model of reality. All models have necessary breaks with reality. A more complex model (like Rolemaster for instance) may model reality more accurately, but, then you have to deal with that complexity. D&D's model works "good enough".
I just suffice by rigidly enforcing Strength (Athletics)'s role in climbing, and jumping. An acrobat who neglects strength is going to be a poor one if he wants to anything more than tumble across the ground and not fall down.
Yaarel
He Mage
Most of the examples that look like acrobatics should also be three feet or higher off the ground, thus be a highjump, thus use Strength by Rules-As-Written.
RAW does sometimes describe Dexterity as ‘acrobatic’. But it uses the term improperly, to actually not mean reallife acrobatics. And instead redefines this term as ‘falling’ and ‘balancing’ only. Properly, acrobatics means much more than falling and balancing.
Reallife acrobatics moreso implements jumping, climbing, and bodylifting - which are Strength.
That said, there are cases - like falling and balancing - where Dexterity can finesse the bodyweight, similar to the way it can finesse a rapier. So there are certain situations where carefully controlled small motions can achieve an ‘acrobatic’ action.
Now, I would go so far as to adjudicate, the same balance that happens during melee combat, climbing, jumping, and so on, is the same balance that happens when walking a tightrope. So I would allow the Strength ability for the check to walk across a tightrope, in the sense of ‘natural athleticism’. But I would also allow the choice of substituting Dexterity because tightroping actually is a situation that benefits from short sensitive movements.
The main thrust of this thread is, it is reasonable to treat the Strength agility as the go-to stat for all body stunts.
Remathilis
Legend
I can certainly see a similarity between these people:
and these people:
Don't you?
and these people:
Don't you?
Psikerlord#
Explorer
It's just a convenient split for mechanics balance in game, nothing more.
Yaarel
He Mage
I also want to loosen the correlation between the Strength ability and weight lifting.
This is easy enough to do. Just make ‘Weightlifting’ a separate skill. Therefore, a hero adds both the Strength and the skill proficiency bonus to determine the total amount of weight that the hero is able to lift.
In other words, a person who is naturally athletic is not necessarily benching 500 pound weights. Oppositely, even a person who isnt especially athletic by aptitude can still train for and maintain pumping weights. Moreso, it is impossible for athletes to lift extreme weights without special training. Weightlifting really is a skill.
Weightlifting is a skill that benefits maximum weight and carrying capacity.
This is easy enough to do. Just make ‘Weightlifting’ a separate skill. Therefore, a hero adds both the Strength and the skill proficiency bonus to determine the total amount of weight that the hero is able to lift.
In other words, a person who is naturally athletic is not necessarily benching 500 pound weights. Oppositely, even a person who isnt especially athletic by aptitude can still train for and maintain pumping weights. Moreso, it is impossible for athletes to lift extreme weights without special training. Weightlifting really is a skill.
Weightlifting is a skill that benefits maximum weight and carrying capacity.
Yaarel
He Mage
The Dexterity ability tends to be overloaded, and too powerful in comparison to the other five abilities.
Allowing Strength to benefit from agile actions, helps Strength be more useful. It especially helps the Fighter do more stuff better out of combat.
Being able to physically interact with ones physical environment generally becomes a Strength check, similar to how being able to socially interact with ones social environment generally becomes a Charisma check. There can be special exceptions, but these are the go-tos.
To emphasize the body agility of Strength helps make it more balanced mechanically.
Last edited:
Psikerlord#
Explorer
Yeah, I think finesse weapons are a mistake and should not exist, in earlier versions of DnD Str was more valuable. Overall though I think Str is valuable enough in 5e, it's just Dex is OP.
If I were going to rebalance the two, I would go back to OSR principles. Str is all melee, Dex is ranged and AC, and there is no modifier for initiative. No such thing as a finesse melee weapon. Then in terms of environment interaction, I'd stick with the current str/dex split.
I am not completely sure about the point you are making Yaarel, except that you believe Acrobatics should be a Strength skill.
The main issue I have is that you are under the impression Acrobatics in 5th edition is related to the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound, which it is not. Acrobatics is more representative of the old balance or tumble checks while Athletics, a strength skill, is now a catch all which includes both weightlifting and gymnastics in a single skill.
Gymnastics is a physical discipline but it is less based on dexterity and more on strength. It is also not really tied to Acrobatics in DnD, but Athletics. Gymnasts may or may not have a high dexterity, however the key to remember is that Proficiency (or even Expertise) is a larger percentage in 5th edition of the total skill modifier than in previous editions:
A Level 20 Rogue with a Strength of 8, but expertise in Athletics, will never score less than a 21 on her checks (-1 attribute, +12 from double proficiency and any roll of 1-9 is automatically treated as a 10). This means that anyone who is not proficient in the skill, but has a Strength of 20, is going to be beaten in an Athletics contest 84% of the time (with 3.5% ties). So while realism is something you can consider, it's really not worth picking a single argument and fighting over it because you're ignoring the bigger picture, which is using numbers to define things will never cause an accurate picture.
The main issue I have is that you are under the impression Acrobatics in 5th edition is related to the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound, which it is not. Acrobatics is more representative of the old balance or tumble checks while Athletics, a strength skill, is now a catch all which includes both weightlifting and gymnastics in a single skill.
Gymnastics is a physical discipline but it is less based on dexterity and more on strength. It is also not really tied to Acrobatics in DnD, but Athletics. Gymnasts may or may not have a high dexterity, however the key to remember is that Proficiency (or even Expertise) is a larger percentage in 5th edition of the total skill modifier than in previous editions:
A Level 20 Rogue with a Strength of 8, but expertise in Athletics, will never score less than a 21 on her checks (-1 attribute, +12 from double proficiency and any roll of 1-9 is automatically treated as a 10). This means that anyone who is not proficient in the skill, but has a Strength of 20, is going to be beaten in an Athletics contest 84% of the time (with 3.5% ties). So while realism is something you can consider, it's really not worth picking a single argument and fighting over it because you're ignoring the bigger picture, which is using numbers to define things will never cause an accurate picture.
