D&D 5E When -5/+10 starts becoming Very Reliable?

[Prism]

Yeah, we know this. And I imagine as the years progress & more people play more 5e these things will be noticed by more players....
Now, a bit over a year into playing 5e the players are beginning to really look at the mechanical aspects.
I'll be DMing for a party of 4 1/2orc barbarians! There was a lot of player discussion/excitement about how awesome GWM will be come 4th lv when they get feats. At least two of them are actively planning on taking this. And RIGHT NOW those two negate the -5 to hit penalty thanks to their strength. If the other two also go this rout? They'll only have a -1 & a -2.
They are gleefully planning to maul whatever gets in their way.
And you know what? I'm OK with this. It just tells me what I need to make encounters suitable against.

You shouldn't need to change too much. The damage increase is only about 1-2 hp more per hit on average. In fact giving out a +1 or +2 weapon can have more of an effect than using this feat. I wouldn't compound the issue by doing both though

 

[Krachek]

Some math.

Accuracy 90%,need roll 3.
Damage 2d6 + 3 avg 10

0.9 x 10 = 9
0.65 x 20 = 13
Net gain +4

Damage 2d6 + 8 Avg 15
0.9 x 15 = 13.5
0.65 x 25 = 16.25
Net gain +2.75

The feature do well for high accuracy, low initial damage.
Best choice, Blow gun!

 

[Prism]

Some math.

Accuracy 90%,need roll 3.
Damage 2d6 + 3 avg 10

0.9 x 10 = 9
0.65 x 20 = 13
Net gain +4

Damage 2d6 + 8 Avg 15
0.9 x 15 = 13.5
0.65 x 25 = 16.25
Net gain +2.75

The feature do well for high accuracy, low initial damage.
Best choice, Blow gun!

True. When you factor in that a character without the feat gets +1 to hit and damage typically until around 8th level, and that the damage is usually a bit higher with Greater Weapon fighting (8.3 for a greatsword), or rage or paladin smite then the extra damage is barely noticeable. Except for maybe barbarians with their always on advantage the feat certainly isn't an auto pick for me.

 

[FrogReaver]

True. When you factor in that a character without the feat gets +1 to hit and damage typically until around 8th level, and that the damage is usually a bit higher with Greater Weapon fighting (8.3 for a greatsword), or rage or paladin smite then the extra damage is barely noticeable. Except for maybe barbarians with their always on advantage the feat certainly isn't an auto pick for me.

Even at level 12?

 

[Flamestrike]

You shouldn't need to houserule. PHB 195, you have ranged disadvantage if within 5 feet of a hostile creature.

I meant, when shooting at a target and the target is in melee with an ally (not necessarily you).

I call your bluff.

If you really mean to persist propagating this myth, Flamestrike, at least be honest enough to admit "I dont want to rehash the whole 'the game is balanced around a six encounter adventuring day' argument again, but thats how you 'fix' it: with lots and lots of DM prep time.

Its not my fault you stat up encounters and leave it there. Spend an extra 5 minutes to design an actual quest for the party (a reason to engage with your encounters) replete with some form of time or pressure limiting factor that pushes the players into longer AD's.

Its not that it cant be done with a minute or twos thought when doing your mid week adventure prep as DM. Its that you cant be bothered.

If you want to just stat up a dozen encounters, and scatter them on a map with no thought as to why the adventurers are there, what they are trying to acomplish, and what time or other pressures are working against them, thats not my fault, nor is it a fault of the game as written.

What advice do you give a DM that purchases an official module to not have to create her own adventures?

Both the entire stories and around half the actual encounters in the published adventures to date include either pressure constraints [youre being pursued through the underdark, the caste is under seige, youre invading an enemies castle etc], time constraints [break the seige by midnight, stop the demon lords/ elemental princes before they power up] or both.

You simply refuse to police it. If your players are relying on the 5 minute AD, have the demon lords/ drow house/ elemental prophets/ Strahd come looking for them (as they certainly would). It gives the PCs enemies the time to locate, engage and destroy the PCs, relocate and reinforce or whatever.

Imagine youre in Afghanistan as part of a 5 man special forces team, behind enemy lines. You honestly think youve got all the time in the world to complete your missions, being able to kill the guards of a stronghold and then fall back to camp for the night? Or sneak into an en enemy camp and capture an enemy leader with no repurcussions, time constraints (how long he will be where your intell tells you he'll be there) or any other factor involved? Or do anything at all that doesnt involve a time or pressure constraint?

Every mission you ever take on in the Army has a time limit, and key timings. Be at place 'X' by time 'Y' to do task 'Z' which needs to be acomplished by time 'XY'. Just like every other job in the world. If you dont complete the contracted work by X you dont get penalised. If you miss deadline X then bad thing Y happens. If you hit targets X then you get bonus Y. Etc.

All you need to do as DM is use this in your games. Rather than break verisimilitude, it enhances it. It makes the world seem both alive and real, and it drives the story and provides dramatic tension (in additon to its balancing game effects).

I have no idea why you find this so hard to police, or why it makes you so angry doing your job as DM.

 

[Flamestrike]

I don't know that you can take Flamestrike's word on the six to eight encounter adventuring day.

Youre supposed to defeat them easily, expending around 10-15 percent of party resources in the attempt.

When I started to destroy his encounters even with his recommended tactics forcing the encounters to follow a grid map,

Lol. Mate, you're redrawing encounters onto a Grid map, that I roughly sketched out using ToTM. Also (unsurprisingly) youre getting much more succesful since I posted the encounters online first, allowing you to view the encounter and encounter environment before hand, and tailor your tactics to the encounters. The monsters have been unable to change tactics mid battle (besides what you decide that they do) and youve been doing all the rolling.

Like I said in the thread, for encounters 4-7 I wont be doing that. We can resolve first few rounds of each encounter in the thread to make it a bit more transparent.

there were major weaknesses in his encounter design I exploited.

Exactly. You wont know the encounter design, monsters tactics, or altered abilities until after the encounter has finished from now on.

I'm not playing theater of the mind. I'm using grid mapping, which forces following of the movement rules like Squeezing and having to take double moves to cover father distances. As well as putting creatures in range of spells he hand-waved as not in range.

Exactly. Youre changing the DMs encounters, placing monsters in range of spells that were previously declared by the DM in ToTM not to be in range.

Don't buy that six to eight encounter day rubbish. Optimized parties will destroy such encounters even with a time limit. No way you can maintain that level of challenge on a consistent basis against an optimized party using the Monster Manual or even the recommended design principles.

Youre not finished yet. You're only up to encounter 2 [still in it in fact], and youre already down around 15 percent of your resources for the day.

Lets see how you go after 5 more, including the CR 18 BBEG.

 

[Jester David]

So you don''t want any criticism of 5E?

What I want is irrelevant. These aren't my boards. I'm not a moderator.
But what I'd like is constructive criticism. "GWM didn't work in my game and so I…." or "GWM is breaking my game, how can I fix it?" Those are cool because we walk out of them with a better game and things are positive rather than negative.

That point aside, an "Observations on the math of GWM and when it becomes broken" bit of writing is less of an interesting forum post and really more of a blog, since the intent is not to start a conversation. It's talking at people rather than talking with people.

 

[Jester David]

What advice do you give a DM that purchases an official module to not have to create her own adventures?

The obvious advice: published modules are designed for a generic group of semi-competent players as a baseline and do not assume great coordination, tactics, or optimization otherwise the quote-unquote average players would be crushed by the module. When running published content for your players it is always a good idea to customize it, adjusting it to accommodate for their weaknesses so as to not force them into a roadbloack they do not have the tools to overcome but also ensure they face an appropriate challenge.
After all, three or the four paragraphs on running a published adventure in the DMG are on customizing.

 

[Prism]

Even at level 12?

Probably not by this point if I hadn't taken it before.

Take a strength 20 fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapons Master using a greatsword and with a Bless spell running. Against an AC of 17 they will do on average 10 points of damage per attack without the feat and 12 when using it. Given their three attacks that makes a sum total of 6 points of damage a round. For comparison, if you give the fighter without the feat a +1 sword then they do as much damage as the Great Weapons Master. So the feat is roughly worth +1 to hit and damage - hardly overpowering I would say.

If you take a lower AC like 15 then the difference is roughly 8 points a round. If you remove the bless spell then the difference is about 2 points per round.

Basically the feat is good as a fodder killer but doesn't make a huge difference against the big guys. It required a constant bless to get much out of it at all and clerics at this level have other stuff to be doing which makes it not a guarantee. If you can get a reliable source of advantage then it does get a fair bit better so it would be hard to resist as a barbarian, but as another class it doesn't really interest me.

And as a anecdotal example, I play a high level (20) fighter with this feat and I barely ever use it as the monster ACs are high (18 - 20 is usual) and he has a magic weapon that does additional damage dice which is better than the feat. Even without the magic weapon it hardly makes a nick in a monsters hp. The most fun bit about the feat becomes the extra attack

Sharpshooter is better though with increased accuracy and lower normal damage

 

[Zardnaar]

Probably not by this point if I hadn't taken it before.

Take a strength 20 fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapons Master using a greatsword and with a Bless spell running. Against an AC of 17 they will do on average 10 points of damage per attack without the feat and 12 when using it. Given their three attacks that makes a sum total of 6 points of damage a round. For comparison, if you give the fighter without the feat a +1 sword then they do as much damage as the Great Weapons Master. So the feat is roughly worth +1 to hit and damage - hardly overpowering I would say.

If you take a lower AC like 15 then the difference is roughly 8 points a round. If you remove the bless spell then the difference is about 2 points per round.

Basically the feat is good as a fodder killer but doesn't make a huge difference against the big guys. It required a constant bless to get much out of it at all and clerics at this level have other stuff to be doing which makes it not a guarantee. If you can get a reliable source of advantage then it does get a fair bit better so it would be hard to resist as a barbarian, but as another class it doesn't really interest me.

And as a anecdotal example, I play a high level (20) fighter with this feat and I barely ever use it as the monster ACs are high (18 - 20 is usual) and he has a magic weapon that does additional damage dice which is better than the feat. Even without the magic weapon it hardly makes a nick in a monsters hp. The most fun bit about the feat becomes the extra attack

Sharpshooter is better though with increased accuracy and lower normal damage

Have a level 17 spellcaster put foresight on you and see what happens Spellcasters can often get in more damage via buffing the fighter types than dealing direct damage themselves.