D&D 5E Tweak Instant Cure spells to fix whack-a-mole

So here's the idea to fix whack-a-mole:

If you're 1 hp or above, cure spells are instant. If hp 0 or below, cure spells take 1d3 minutes to work before the target is healed.

No more whack-a-mole?

What do folks think?
Try this instead:

Track hit points down to negative -10.

That's all. Done.

(This should make your players find that whackamole is no longer a go-to strategy, since many hits will require 11 hp to heal, and no longer are those cheap first level bonus action Healing Words enough)
 

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Either you are deliberately choosing to insist you don't understand me, or I have exhausted every way I can think of to communicate to you and failed to do so successfully.
As you were so intent on pointing out, the explanation you find the most obvious isn't necessarily the only one.

"blamed" for as that, to me, implies fault or wrongdoing on their part which is why I said I wasn't blaming the players before
So, you're not 'blaming' the players, you're just attributing the problem to them, rather than the system. Distinction noted. Judged meaningless, pedantic, and evasive, but noted.

Expectation of when and how a PC will arrive at 0 hit points.
You mean like "in combat" and "from enemies trying to kill them?" Pretty realistic expectations, for adventurers.

I mean, traps & hazards are also in the offing in most D&D games, and its certainly true that healing an ally who fell in a pit just doesn't have the same 'whack-a-mole' feel to it (perhaps ironically, because he /is/ in a hole).
Doesn't seem like a very meaningful insight, though, thanks just the same.

For those of us not intimately familiar with the healing rules of previous editions, and still wanting to contribute to this discussion, how does the "heal-from-zero" become an issue?
...Is it simply that if a player who had 30 hp was hit for 38, reducing them to -8, can now be healed for the full value of a spell? So healing word which rolls 6, brings them to 6 hp instead of -2... which honestly seems like a waste of time to me, since they'd still be bleeding out and dying and your action was to do nothing to change that circumstance.
Yep. Heal-from-0 means it's never a waste to heal a fallen ally, and that waiting for the ally to fall 'saves' you from healing the damage he took over what was required to bring him up to 0.

In past editions we tracked negative hps, so if you were reduced to -8, you needed 8 points of healing just to get back to 0, and more to get up to full. So if you had, say, 12 hps and were hit for 10, then another 10, you'd be reduced to -8, and need all 20 hps you took healed to get back up to full. Not only that, but there might be serious consequences to being reduced to 0. So, it was a good idea to heal an ally as soon as he'd taken enough damage that you could use a spell without 'wasting' it. In the above example, you might cast CLW (1d8) as soon as your ally took those first 10 hps of damage, so he could take the second hit and still be up, he'd still need 12 more to get back to full, the same 20 as if you watched him get beaten down before doing anything, no upside to watching your friend dying.

But, in 5e, if you waited for him to drop, you'd only need to heal him for 12 hps instead of 20. Saving healing resources. An upside to dying.

So... I am confused to a large degree of the nature of this problem.
For some of us, the problem isn't a big problem - so it's efficient to let your friends nearly die before you bust out the healing - it's not like D&D is a paragon of realism and genre fidelity, anyway, do what works best. For others, it's annoying, and a fix is desirable - the OP wants to fix the issue, mechanically, rather than work within or ignore it.

Some of the possible solutions, like death at -10, are just turning back the clock to a previous edition that didn't have the problem.
 
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So here's the idea to fix whack-a-mole:

If you're 1 hp or above, cure spells are instant. If hp 0 or below, cure spells take 1d3 minutes to work before the target is healed.

No more whack-a-mole?

What do folks think?
To answer your specific question:

Unfortunately, the design of D&D is such that going down to 0 hp is not meant to be an especially uncommon event.

Not at low levels (where you have few hit points) and not at high levels (where some attacks and effects deal LOTS of damage).

By making it difficult (impossible) to heal your ally back into the fight, you are increasing swinginess and deadliness by a significant amount.

That doesn't mean your idea is necessarily bad, only that it is a heavy nerf to player characters, and you need to be careful not to overwhelm the party with encounters that would otherwise be much less dangerous.

Also: how fun is it to be out of a whole fight? By this I mean - each DM should really ask her players what they think.
 

Cure spells are already bad enough and they only have usefulness when getting someone knockedout back on his feet.

Most of the time it is better to throw some spell proactively and preventing damage instead of healing the damage.
I agree to the first part. But the second seems to contradict the first.

But perhaps you meant the second part as an analysis of the proposal... in which case, yes, I agree - Psikerlord's idea will mean PCs will start to heal proactively instead of only finding combat heals useful for whackamole; to get downed allies back into the fight.
 

Also: how fun is it to be out of a whole fight?
Given that fights are designed to be run quickly, it should be enough not-fun that players will want to avoid it, but not so much not-fun that the players gets bored from the sidelines. If healing is too easy, then players won't care about taking damage or getting knocked down, since they'll just get right back up again as though nothing happened.

It's the same with character death. You should care enough that you'll try to avoid it, but you shouldn't care so much that it ruins your game when it happens. If resurrection is too easy, then players won't care about trying to stay alive, since they'll just get right back up again as though nothing happened.
 

For those of us not intimately familiar with the healing rules of previous editions, and still wanting to contribute to this discussion, how does the "heal-from-zero" become an issue?
Fundamentally it is this:
Any damage done that takes a character below zero is effectively negated.
At higher levels it is not possible for a monster to instakill a character through direct damage from 1 hit point (ie - they cannot do the character's entire hit point pool in a single hit).
Typically one healer spends his entire round to cast a healing spell that cannot out-heal a single attack, let alone a foe's entire turn.

Therefore it's more efficient to heal the minimum amount of damage in the least expensive way.

Why this is not a problem:
1. Continuing to attack a downed foe will cause them to die in very short order.
2. Foes typically outnumber adventurers, meaning they have surplus actions to do 1)
3. Foes should usually have a goal that is goes beyond the combat. Foes want to drive off, capture, or kill the PCs or simply survive. If whack-a-mole begins, then either it doesn't impact that goal OR it makes coup-de-grace inevitable for all but the most basic of foes, many of whom will continue to attack a downed adventurer anyway.
4. AOEs.

These factors SHOULD combine to make players unsure that they can leave a character bleeding out, or even on low enough hit points that a single hit will take them down. If your players are not worrying about this, then I would submit that your NPCs are being played solely to be a combat challenge, rather than with thought to why they are doing what they are doing and what they want to achieve.


[MENTION=6701872]AaronOfBarbaria[/MENTION]
If y = xA, and A is a random number between 0 and 1, then there is no correlation between y and x. However higher values of y are only possible with higher values of x. In other words lack of correlation does not imply independence.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/causation-without-correlation-is-possible/
 

This is similar to people saying that adventures like HotDQ or CoS are terrible because they contain monsters that will wipe out the party instantly. When it is more the case that the adventures are terrible for a group that wants to primarily engage in the combat pillar to the exclusion of social interaction and exploration.

So this healing from 0 may cause problems with certain game styles but not others. The others may be more in line with the default assumption of 5e.

It's also important to look at whether it is actually a problem, and if so, why. I think those answers probably differ from table to table. Combats don't last long in general and entering a combat on the brink of death with the plan to heal from 0 isn't a great plan. Also, how many people in a group can actually heal from 0 efficiently? There are many questions to be answered.

As for house rules the exhaustion mechanic was offered. I personally like not resetting death saving throws until a long rest. It's not really for balance but more for drama.
 

I'm sorry but I'm going to stop dancing around it: you're talking :):):):):):):):).

And you're talking vulgarities, and just invoked the language filter. That is not cool. That says to us that you're probably a tad too engaged - unwilling or unable to self-edit any longer.

It is time for you to cool down, and regain your composure.



I'm tired of this.

Then you're not going to mind the solution.

The two of you should have figured this out earlier, but now let's make it official - the two of you stop responding to each other in this thread.

Oh, and of course, no butting heads with anyone else who doesn't agree with you. Treat your fellow posters with respect, even if they disagree with you. Heck, *especially* if they disagree with you.
 

Mod Edit: Content removed. Please do not discuss moderation in-thread. If you need to discuss, take it to e-mail or PM. . ~Umbran
 
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