D&D 5E LMoP - Goblin Ambush - Stealth and Surprise

[Osirisx]

"I do think that the LMoP module does a perfect job at introducing all the different mechanics one-by-one while slowing teaching both DM and players all the special situations you can come into."

Well I wouldn't say it's perfect. It's the first encounter and the only one without a map which. It says the characters can't surprise the goblins but doesn't take the extra few words to spell out plainly why, or how surprise and stealth and hiding all work together, which would have potentially saved us looking up stealth, hiding, surprise, etc rules until we were only confused more.

"The very first thing the module teaches you is how to handle traveling: Ask you players who takes the lead, who takes the rear, who drives the wagon, etc.
Through this you already establish which characters even have a chance to spot something."

We did this. I was answering a specific question and clarifying what happened and why "the party tolerated the rogue scouting ahead."

Anyway, I came here to get help understanding these mechanics in the first encounter of LMoP. Arguing it did "the perfect job of teaching new players" doesn't really help me. XD

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

The point was basically that you should follow what the module explains rather than looking up generally stealth and surprise rules. You have people discussing these for over 1000 forum pages (spread on various threads) alone on these forums already, so there is really no clear cut explanation. It's easiest to just say "The DM determines whether someone is surprised or not". And you as the DM read "The goblins can't be surprised", consequently you determine that they aren't surprised.

There is also a reason why the first battle doesn't have a map. It's to try out free movement combat with no exact positioning.

Try not to overthink this.

 

[Osirisx]

"Try not to overthink this"

Thank you for your input.

 

[alienux]

When I ran that part of the adventure, I assumed the reason that the goblins couldn't be surprised was because they had specifically set up a trap to catch someone, and were therefore on full alert as part of the trap. They're hiding off to the side specifically watching for someone to approach.

Now, if I had a player who's character went out of their way to go around through the woods behind where the goblins were waiting, I'd have them make stealth checks and I'd have the goblins make perception checks. But I think that would be unlikely in this particular adventure because, if I remember correctly, they PCs don't know the goblins are there in the first place, so unless they're specifically sneak without knowing about the goblins (which is certainly possible), the goblins would see them.

 

[cmad1977]

Hey guys,

So we're introducing ourselves to 5E through Lost Mine of Phandelver, and first encounter, we ran into an issue. We've read through the basic rules, starter rules, PHB and DMG. We've gone through other Threads on the subject. But we still don't have a clear answer.

Here's the confusion.

1. The starter book explicitly says "The characters cannot surprise the goblins." It does not say why this is so. They do not have the Alert feat.
2. A halfling rogue, if playing by the stealth v perception/passive perception, successfully used stealth to sneak up ahead of the party to the area in which the book says the goblin ambush should be triggered. She also successfully hid behind the horses laying on the road.
3. The goblins did not surprise her.

As far as I can tell, she should, by the rules, surprise the goblins, and therefore gain advantage on her attack and use sneak attack. But by certain wording in the starter rulebook, it seems that's not possible.

So how would you suggest handling the described encounter? And why can the party not surprise the goblins? Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks!

So you're gonna get a lot of unrelated 'advice' that devolves into silly arguments about the stealth rules. My two cents...
Overall I don't see anything really 'wrong' with the way you ran the encounter. You may want to consider a couple things about similar situations in the future.

1: no the goblins do not have Alert. However they are laying in wait and ready to ambush anyone who approaches the dead horses. Also the area around the horses for some distance is clear of obstacles. .

2:Stealthing up the road 'shouldn't' really work(but it's not really important here). Make sure your players know that stealth isn't like 'stealth mode' in video games, you don't just sorta vanish.

3: this is totally fine. The goblins didn't surprise my party either. My group approached the horses and (via actively surveying the surrounding forest) saw the goblins lying in wait.

As far as your halfling being able to surprise the goblins after moving up the road to the horses: remember that creatures can see pretty far during the day. Once the foes see some wagons approaching, unless the scout has previously moved off the road, surprising the goblins isn't really going to happen.

You probably had a fine time anyways and ultimately it's a perfect learning scenario for all involved.
If all the 'advice' you're going to get hopefully the following is useful.
Try not to get too hung up on the rules at the table. If you make the call that the rogue surprises the goblins then roll with it. Examine the rules after the game and the following session explain to the group what you may have done wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[robus]

"Try not to overthink this"

Thank you for your input.

You're going to get a lot of that. Too many people here think it's all obvious and it's silly to complain about being confused. Two things saved me (and the starter adventure was not one of them!)

Iserith's guide to adjudicating actions

AngryGM's articles on how to run a game

 

[iserith]

You're going to get a lot of that. Too many people here think it's all obvious and it's silly to complain about being confused. Two things saved me (and the starter adventure was not one of them!)

Iserith's guide to adjudicating actions

AngryGM's articles on how to run a game

Yes, there are a lot of experienced DMs on this forum and it's very hard to remember a time when you didn't know something. I think once you internalized a few 5e fundamentals, however, such as the structure of the basic conversation of the game plus the goals of play, it suddenly becomes a lot easier to figure out what you need to do on the fly.

 

[Motorskills]

It's also very tough on a newbie DM for two other reasons.

1) The goblins' special abilities take a bit of brain power. Much better to have introduced Bonus Actions (and then Reactions) in a step-by-step way:
Shoot, Move, Hide.
Shoot (from Hidden*, and 3/4 cover), Move, Hide.
Rinse and repeat, very nasty.

2) The goblins, played correctly, are actually very dangerous to a newbie group. I generally recommend starting with just one or two of these guys, and have them reinforced if necessary.


*caveat emptor, etc

 

[robus]

Yes, there are a lot of experienced DMs on this forum and it's very hard to remember a time when you didn't know something. I think once you internalized a few 5e fundamentals, however, such as the structure of the basic conversation of the game plus the goals of play, it suddenly becomes a lot easier to figure out what you need to do on the fly.

I do, very much, appreciate your efforts to inform and educate iserith. And I do wish the Starter Set had had more DM-oriented sidebars discussing which rules might apply as the adventure progresses. It requires an awful lot from a new DM. I think people forget how stressful it can get when others are waiting on your response in the heat of the moment and you're barely familiar with the rules yourself (and that's even when it's a friendly group! )

 

[Rya.Reisender]

You're going to get a lot of that. Too many people here think it's all obvious and it's silly to complain about being confused.

Hey, trying not to overthink it is valuable advice. And no I don't think it's obvious. I think the opposite. That's why you shouldn't overthink it. The OP already confirmed that by trying to figure out the rules on it, he got even more confused.