D&D 5E Warlock, Hex, and Short Rests: The Bag of Rats Problem

[Sacrosanct]

While I agree with you that the list is not exhaustive, sleep is part of the list.

If you are incapacitated you lose concentration. You become incapacitated when you are unconscious.

Being asleep and being unconscious are not really the same thing. For example, you can end your sleep state at any time with any sort of stimulus. Can't really do that when you're unconscious. unconscious means devoid of sensation. When you're asleep, you still have sensation. Oftentimes that's what wakes you up.

adjective
1.
not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition.

Yay! Does this mean we can have another debate over the semantics of words?

*Edit, to get a preemptive start on that debate, here you go, the difference between being asleep and being unconscious

http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question120615.html

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[ad_hoc]

Being asleep and being unconscious are not really the same thing. For example, you can end your sleep state at any time with any sort of stimulus. Can't really do that when you're unconscious. unconscious means devoid of sensation. When you're asleep, you still have sensation. Oftentimes that's what wakes you up.

adjective
1.
not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition.

Yay! Does this mean we can have another debate over the semantics of words?

*Edit, to get a preemptive start on that debate, here you go, the difference between being asleep and being unconscious

http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question120615.html

Right, but we're talking about D&D rules here.

The Sleep spell makes you unconscious.

The difference, like you said, is how you end the condition. The condition remains the same. Conditions being a description of your state.

Unless you are actually going to argue that you retain your ability to perform actions and the like while sleeping.

 

[Caliban]

Being asleep and being unconscious are not really the same thing. For example, you can end your sleep state at any time with any sort of stimulus. Can't really do that when you're unconscious. unconscious means devoid of sensation. When you're asleep, you still have sensation. Oftentimes that's what wakes you up.

adjective
1.
not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition.

Yay! Does this mean we can have another debate over the semantics of words?

*Edit, to get a preemptive start on that debate, here you go, the difference between being asleep and being unconscious

http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question120615.html

Sleep is a bit weird in 5e. It's kind of like the Stealth/Hiding rules - vaguely described. It's not a defined condition in the Players handbook, but the Sleep spell says you fall unconscious. Is there a difference between being magically asleep and "naturally" asleep? Both allow you to be easily woken up, whereas being rendered unconscious via other means requires more effort.

Some people think you can maintain concentration even while asleep. I'm not one of them, but I don't think the rules actually say one way or the other. Sage Advice says you can't, which is reasonable to me. But there are many people who discount Sage Advice out of hand.

 

[MrHotter]

"eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

It should be noted that you are able to read and still concentrate on a spell. I think one of the major problems here is that most of the rules in 5e are written flavour first, while concentration is written mechanics first and then flavour is forgotten about.

Whatever concentration represents, it's not what I think of as concentration. That's the heart of the matter.

That's very true about the 'game mechanic' nature of concentration. I was trying to figure out a way to explain it with analogies, but there are no 'real world' examples that make sense to me.

My idea was that concentration was like driving a car. You need to make sure you are watching the road, but you can adjust your radio or throw eggs out of your window, but you can't do something else that requires your concentration (like performing surgery or reading a book). The analogy does not work in this instance, because a short rest from driving (grab a snack and stretch your legs) would interrupt the driving. I guess it would only work for those who rule that you can't get any benefits from a short rest while concentrating.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Apparently you do, since that's exactly what you do next.



"The only people who disagree with the way I want it to work are powergamers who want overpowered stuff." Good thing you aren't biased or anything.

The fact that some people see the "concentrate through short rests" as RAW just means they are dirty power gamers, right? Couldn't be people reaching their own conclusions based on the text, it has to be powergaming.

For your information, I've stated more than once that allowing it or not allowing it makes very little difference to the warlock overall. So not allowing it isn't a "nerf", and allowing it is only a minor boost. My understanding of the RAW indicates it's allowed - despite what the Sheep Mage thinks.

Well, I phrased it as a question to indicate that it's only a possibility, and the only time I encountered it, it was the case.

Also, relaxe. I wasn't talking about YOU. You might not have called it a nerf, but others have. I also made no judgement that Power Gamers are "dirty" - they are what they are. A whole table of them has a fun game, I am sure.

And, it is neither allowed nor disallowed by RAW. It is allowed or disallowed by ruling. Which is all the guy you keep insulting was saying. Never once did he tell you to do it his way.

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[Caliban]

And, it is neither allowed nor disallowed by RAW. It is allowed or disallowed by ruling. Which is all the guy you keep insulting was saying. Never once did he tell you to do it his way.

No, it is allowed by RAW. Some people may wish it were otherwise, but they're incorrect. This was settled a long time ago, but some people just won't let it go.

 

[Barolo]

We all decide different things at our table. Players figuring out ways to cheese the rules will be handled differently by different DMs. This whole thread started over the 'bag of rats'.

As far as using Pact Magic spell slots to regain sorcery points, I would not allow that at my table either. I'm sure other DMs would disagree. The muticlass spell slots list does not include Warlock levels, so their spell slots are calculated seperately even if they can use them to cast spells from another class. Since warlock spellcasting is handled differently, it makes sense (to me at my table) that they use different rules for their slots.

At my table the Sorc/warlock should use his Warlock pact magic slots first so he can recover them at a short rest, but I would make him use his spellcasting slots for adding/removing sorc points between long rests.

I have a quite more liberal approach, but yours seems consistent all around and well placed. The bag of rats is one of those cases I would suspect very infrequent, at least before coming here to the forums and start debating. While I do feel the idea of waking up and doing the silly creature sacrifice as cheesy, I would not be offended at all if occasionally the warlock managed to keep concentration of his lvl 3 hex through a combat, then rests as per the needs of the whole group, and latter asks to move the (supposedly still active) hex to another target. It just never happened in my table, even though every single campaign I'm in (as a DM or player) has at least one warlock.

About the sorcerer, I wouldn't mind the player doing the sorcery points trick. It has a cap, as the sorcerer cannot have more sorcery points than sorcerer levels, and to really try to abuse by further converting the excess points to conventional spell slots would demand too many short rests and I suspect would prove too inefficient time-wise.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

"eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

It should be noted that you are able to read and still concentrate on a spell. I think one of the major problems here is that most of the rules in 5e are written flavour first, while concentration is written mechanics first and then flavour is forgotten about.

Whatever concentration represents, it's not what I think of as concentration. That's the heart of the matter.

I think it means to represent what you think of as concentration, just not to the same degree. The idea, IMO, is that the character is using a certain amount of brain power and effort to keep a thing going, but through practice, can keep it enough in the back of his mind to do other somewhat complicated things (like casting another spell, etc) without breaking it. A sharp pain has a decent chance of throwing him off, though.

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[FitzTheRuke]

No, it is allowed by RAW. Some people may wish it were otherwise, but they're incorrect. This was settled a long time ago, but some people just won't let it go.

Okay, if you say so, but you are the one who is telling people that your way is "right" not the guy you keep insisting it doing it.

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