D&D 5E Epic Level (outline)
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
jgsugden
Legend
I went more simply:
1.) You can multiclass and advance as normal using the multiclass rules.
2.) You can take the Epic class which is simply d8 Hit dice with the benefit for each level being an epic boon. Every odd level the DM selects it for you. Every even level you select it. Taking 1 level of the Epic class makes you a demi-god.
3.) Proficiency bonus just as CZ has it: +1 per 4 levels.
4.) Experience progression slows down - effectively taking 25% more experience to get to each new level.
5.) 30th level promotes you to an NPC Lesser God. There is no exception there - Game Over, Man.
1.) You can multiclass and advance as normal using the multiclass rules.
2.) You can take the Epic class which is simply d8 Hit dice with the benefit for each level being an epic boon. Every odd level the DM selects it for you. Every even level you select it. Taking 1 level of the Epic class makes you a demi-god.
3.) Proficiency bonus just as CZ has it: +1 per 4 levels.
4.) Experience progression slows down - effectively taking 25% more experience to get to each new level.
5.) 30th level promotes you to an NPC Lesser God. There is no exception there - Game Over, Man.
This sounds excessive, even for Epic. Yes, those PCs are supposed to be the best of the best and almost demi-god like, but there are few monsters if any that won't constantly be hit with an attack.
+5 stat, +9 proficiency, +3 magic weapon (we are talking Epic here), maybe some more from Advantage or spells or whatever.
Hitting AC 19 with a 2 on the die roll means that AC is really no longer a meaningful defense in 5E. PC spell DCs will be 22. Virtually no monster in the MM will ever save on that except legendary saves. Skills at +14 are fairly potent as well, but Expertise (which is already quasi-broken mathematically) is now +23.
The DM will be forced to significantly modify almost every monster, or encounters will be mostly a joke. An exercise in dice rolling.
And when the DM throws something with a DC at the PCs, one PC has a saving throw of +14. Another PC has a saving throw of +0 (shy of magic items and boons). One PC gets toasted, the other PC barely notices most of the time.
The range becomes too great. The Fighter with +0 Wisdom save fails the save every time on a spell that might have any reasonable chance of temporarily taking out the +14 Wisdom save Cleric (and it becomes worse if the Cleric has other magic or spells or boons up).
This seems like earlier version arms races, since not all of the abilities of the PCs (and NPCs) are actually increasing, only their best ones. The PC spell caster throws a DC 22 spell at the -1 save monster (since most monsters have -1 in some save category or other) and he basically always fails.
How does one challenge the PCs? Is every fight with multiple Ancient Dragons (which the PCs win anyway)?
I definitely agree with the boons and multiclassing and such, but this seems mathematically broken.
jgsugden
Legend
Although the PCs should hit almost all the time, you do need to make new threats that are appropriate for the level. The rules do not expect to challenge PCs of these levels.
I also do not share the expectation that all PCs will have +3 weapons. The PCs I ran into the epic levels when I hit this level had one weapon with a +3 bonus.
Follow CZ or my rules and advance 5 PCs to 25th level. Run them against a deadly + 25% encounter for 20th level PCs. The PCs should feel heroic and powerful, but they can still be challenged.
If you subscribe to my view: Adventuring at these levels - where the PCs are beyond just heroes - they're legends or demi-gods - should combine situations in which they feel ultra-powerful and rare threats that seem impossible. Most battles are not life and death for the PCs - they are battles in which the heroes race to stop something bad from taking place. The challenge is not always survival, especially at high levels: sometimes it is protecting others, beating a foe before they can complete a ritual, etc...
Last edited:
dave2008
Legend
It is, however, the same progression that monsters get. So you just need to add the magic weapon / arrmor bonus to them (monsters) as well. Also, the stats can go up to 30, so: +10 stat, +9 prof, +3 magic = +22 to hit. Pretty much auto hit everything in the MM.
That being said, I noticed that the most popular epic character options on the DMsGuild does not increase the proficiency bonus. Probably for this very reason.
No doubt. But with DC 22 (DC 20 at level 21), most monsters in the MM are effectively unusable. Most monsters will auto fail a saving throw if the player picks the proper ability score (which is not that hard to do). Yeah, a Balor or Pit Fiend or Ancient Dragon is still often a minor threat, but nearly everything else really isn't for most single PC spellcasters, let alone a party. The entire purpose of 5E was to have limited bonuses and DCs and such to avoid problems with this type of thing in earlier editions.
It's fine to give PC additional abilities, it's problematic to boost to hit, and skills, and DCs to the point that the DM has to go way out his way to make anything challenging (and again, the PCs that aren't proficient in something are even more gimped then they were the first 20 levels).
As a couple of others have alluded to, epic level characters should probably be facing epic level threats and custom creatures that aren't in the MM.
One of the core concepts of 5E is that a big enough army can take out a dragon. That shouldn't be an assumption with epic level monsters. Epic level threats should be Godzilla who stomps on your cavalry and spits at your army. The spit, of course, explodes on impact wiping your army from the face of existence.
I don't want to do an epic campaign any time in the future, but if I did you wouldn't be fighting "mere" dragons at 29th level. You'd be fighting dragon gods.
Hi,
The problem with these epic rules is that they break the design assumptions of the game.
Bounded accuracy? Gone. Things like double-proficiency put an end to that. First attack auto-hits? ?Boon of Spell Mastery (Shield) on a martial character? Ok....
Action economy? Once per short rest, cast all the spells.
Concentration? Boon of no Concentration. Now, I think a Warlock's Hex should have been a no-concentration class feature to begin with. But *any* spell for any character is bound to lead to interesting issues.
Class niche protection? At-will Thunderwave or Burning Hands in an effective 9th level slot make Eldritch Blast pathetic. (Spellcasters *need* to take something like this too, because martial characters get more attacks and buffs to their attacks while spellcasting does not improve at all.) Boon of Speed rains on monks and rogues.
Now, there's nothing wrong with breaking things. In a very real sense, these rules capture the true essence of Epic D&D3.x. But as always, fun rules.
I suspect that you're better off just rewriting an epic character in a system designed for it, say, Nobilis, and taking it from there.
Anyway,
Ken
The problem with these epic rules is that they break the design assumptions of the game.
Bounded accuracy? Gone. Things like double-proficiency put an end to that. First attack auto-hits? ?Boon of Spell Mastery (Shield) on a martial character? Ok....
Action economy? Once per short rest, cast all the spells.
Concentration? Boon of no Concentration. Now, I think a Warlock's Hex should have been a no-concentration class feature to begin with. But *any* spell for any character is bound to lead to interesting issues.
Class niche protection? At-will Thunderwave or Burning Hands in an effective 9th level slot make Eldritch Blast pathetic. (Spellcasters *need* to take something like this too, because martial characters get more attacks and buffs to their attacks while spellcasting does not improve at all.) Boon of Speed rains on monks and rogues.
Now, there's nothing wrong with breaking things. In a very real sense, these rules capture the true essence of Epic D&D3.x. But as always, fun rules.
I suspect that you're better off just rewriting an epic character in a system designed for it, say, Nobilis, and taking it from there.
Anyway,
Ken
CapnZapp
Legend
What is the collective noun for Tarrasques...?A couple of Tarrasques does not an epic menagerie make
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CapnZapp
Legend
*shrug*
It's not like I made that up from scratch, it's the same progression epic threats use (challenge ratings 21-30)
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