D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

No, but that doesn't by any means indicate that those random encounters never occur in the game world. They still happen, they just don't have any impact on the characters whose lives we're playing out and thus can be - for play purposes - ignored.

Do they still happen? And by "happen" what do we mean?

Because I think we're talking about preferences rather than how things actually must be. In my game, there are literally no random encounters for NPCs. They never ever occur. Anything that happens to an NPC or group of NPCs happens by DM design.

Same rationale applies to the real world - as I walk down a street on the far western edge of Canada a thunderstorm in Birmingham England* doesn't affect me at all. Doesn't mean the thunderstorm doesn't exist, and anyone who ventures outside in Birmingham is still going to get soaking wet...but I'm not there and nor do I know anyone who is, so my not knowing about it is irrelevant.

* - for discussion purposes only. I've no idea what the actual weather is in the UK right now.

We can't compare this to the real world though...because the real world isn't a fiction being manipulated by a DM and players (not that we know of anyway :confused:).

And this is what I'm trying to focus on: that in the game world the PCs are - or certainly started out as - much the same as everyone else; and real-world us putting them in the spotlight doesn't change that.

Sure it does. It makes the story ABOUT them. Therefore, whatever happens to them matters more than what happens to Joe the Blacksmith 100 miles away. The rules and everything about the game is designed around your PCs. So the game functions differently for them. They have encounters because they are adventurers. NPCs have things happen to them.

So this is not to say that the fiction of the world has to acknowledge their specialness....although it can. They can be fated for great things or prophesied to achieve some monumental victory...they can be Ta'veren or bound by Ka or the Chosen Ones or any other fictional trope. But it's not required in the fiction. We can read a story about a character who is thrust into the midst of great happenings and realize that the story is about that character, but he's not some kind of Chosen One. But we still know he's the star of the show.

I know I'm drifting away from the point of the (already tangential) discussion, so I'll just summarize by saying that I don't think it's accurate to say that PCs...no matter how mundane they may be in their world...are not more important or special than NPCs. They certainly must be so.

In the obvious meta-game point of view of the real-world people sitting at the table, yes. That's a given.

It's also irrelevant to what's being discussed.

We're talking about the game world, and how the mechanics of the game (specifically resting, in this case) might force how that game world is built, and how it internally functions when the PCs - and thus the spotlight - aren't around. In theory, when PCs are out interacting with the game-world (as opposed to dungeon-crawling or other serious adventuring activity) what happens on camera should largely mirror what happens off camera. For example, if they meet loads of wandering monsters while travelling through a remote forest (assuming they're not carrying a device of monster attraction) that somewhat sets a standard for what to expect in any other remote forests anywhere else...which means my worldbuilding has just been affected.

It also means that if the PC party travels the road from Althasia to Corwallen and gets attacked by 37 hungry monsters and a flock of insane camels it's beyond simple inconsistency if nobody else had any trouble on that road before or since; or that the dangers only happen to exist on this particular road at this particular time. Which kinda leads back to...

I never said anything about people believing the road to Mt. McGuffin was safe, which perhaps wasn't clear. I was thinking of a wilderness trek where people don't often go, where there's enough danger to cause maybe an encounter a day on average; and saying how this mangles up the resting rules. It's not a Mundane Day, as there's danger; but it's not really an Adventuring Day either as there's not enough going on. More like an Adventuring Week, but the rest rules are based on a day; and if you change them to base on a week then dungeon-crawling gets messed up.

Lan-"speaking of hungry monsters, what is there to eat around here?"-efan

Sure, I can agree with most of that. Because I would expect that a DM would always give consideration to the kind of area in question, and would determine encounters accordingly. You're not going to have a random encounter table for the Shire that has Smaug and the Witch King of Angmar and the Balrog on it just so you can have your PCs be challenged. DMs have total control over this...which is why I don't really get the complaint. If it's a one encounter a day kind of area, then go ahead and do that. If your group doesn't find one encounter days fun, then stop doing it and simply narrate it.

Where I disagree is in the Travel and Dungeoncrawl resting comment. Why can't they be different? I think that's a pretty suitable solution that has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread. Have long rests be impossible in the wilderness while on a journey. Then the entire journey is viewed as an "adventuring day" in that sense. You can have 3 or 18 encounters or anywhere in between as suited. Spread them out in a way that makes sense for the areas the PCs travel. Problem solved.
 

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Well, yes, but angry ancient red dragons where the example given that the discussion was revolving around in that bit, so I carried on with it. It's a clearly extreme example, and so rather good at exploring things bigly, rather than diving down into minutia of whether or not it's 20 CR 1/8 things or 8 CR 1/2 things or whatever -- it was a big stick to get at big ideas. And, clearly I thought so, as I directly called it out.

Sure, but my comment would have been the same regardless of what monster you used in an example

If the encounter tables around Mount Doom all had gerbils and butterflies, I'd say that the DM didn't align his mechanics with the world he's trying to build. I wouldn't say "wow, Mordor's not so bad these days....maybe I'll build a summer home."
 

I don't have full 8 hour rests heal the PCs all the way up to full HP. I just don't like it; I much prefer the 1st Edition feel of PCs potentially getting hurt so badly it may take weeks and months to fully heal. They have to spend Hit Dice to heal during an 8 hour rest just like a 1 hour rest. If they've already used up all their Hit Dice during short rests, then their bodies have just already healed as much as they're going to for the day.

Other aspects of Short and Long Rests remain unaltered.

I also use a system of Wounds if PCs are reduced to 0 HP; broken limbs, cracked ribs, etc. This will lower their Max HP, reduce movement speed, give penalties to attack rolls, etc.

(To compensate somewhat, I also have a healing cantrip for 1D8 points, open to all spell-casting classes, that can only affect a PC up to 3 times per 24 hour period, requires 3 rounds in between uses, and forces a Wisdom Saving Throw or causes the target to be Stunned for 1 round; if used more than 3 times on the same creature in a 24 hour period, or before 3 rounds have passed between uses, it will instead start causing 1d8 damage per use to them, from over-stimulating the target's metabolism and overtaxing their body. It's inspired by the "rough" pre-Nynaeve Aes Sedai Healing that made people gasp and shake and spasm unless they'd become toughened and used to the experience.)
 

Unless you lost me, BA reduces the implications to the world of challenging high-level characters, no? You don't need to upgrade from Orcs to Drow to Swordwings* as you go, just more orcs do the trick.

I dunno about that, a well placed Wall of Fire should be able to turn most Lannister/orc soldiers into walking barbecues.
 

Sorry I have trouble getting through the snark some of the time to reach the actual point...
Weird, I haven't been all that snarky. More good humored.

So one days worth of encounters...I need 3 deadly encounters to take place between said town and the dungeon (24 miles worth of distance)... what level are the adventurers... nevermind I'll make them 3rd since we're dealing with a simple dungeon and town a day away? Also Party size... classic 4 member? Rogue, Wizard, Fighter, Cleric... so 1600 for a deadly encounter

Deadly Encounters
CR 1/2 Orcs (7)
CR 1 Dire Wolves (4)
CR 2 Giant Boar (2)/ CR 1/2 Young Giant Boar(2)...use Giant Goat Stats)

So we have our 3 deadly encounters in an area that extends out to a total of 24 miles from the town... A small tribe of Orcs, a pack of Dire Wolves and ill tempered Giant Boars.

I could see the Orcs being a problem for the town people... but maybe they are tracking the party because they slew some of their brethren earlier...or perhaps their total numbers are small (unless I want to make them a problem for the town and then their numbers are big... see how I did that??) while the Dire wolves may ambush a lone traveler... they very much would shy away from confrontations in the actual town or near it unless starving. The Boars are ill-tempered but would probably be hunted by the townspeople for food. Yeah I'm not seeing the implications these encounters force on my world building. And yeah I don't see this as all that extraordinarily dangerous since I as the DM decide the frequency the NPC's encounter these things... I decide how many total there are and so on. This is all outside of building he encounter... that's worldbuilding to me.
Huh, shoulda specified Tier II/III, by picking Tier 1 it's pretty impossible to come up with an encounter that's remotely threatening to a town. Ah, well, I don't suppose you'd be willing to redo with a higher Tier?

I may also have a quibble about 4 dire wolves only attacking lone travelers, considering a white room has 4 dires killing 40 commoners with no losses, but, eh, you do you.

And that last bit, where, after you built the encounters you considered how they fit in your worldbuilding -- that's been my point all along. If you have increasingly dangerous encounters as the party levels, it begins to become harder and harder to fit it in.
 

Do they still happen? And by "happen" what do we mean?

Because I think we're talking about preferences rather than how things actually must be. In my game, there are literally no random encounters for NPCs. They never ever occur. Anything that happens to an NPC or group of NPCs happens by DM design.

Well, they have encounters. And probably a whole bunch of them you didn't include between the last time you saw the NPC and this time.

Whether an encounter is random or not is pretty irrelevant. Rolling for random encounters in the game provides a measure of surprise for the DM as well as the players. It gives a % that something is going to happen, and sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

For example, I roll randomly for weather in my campaign. Just because I don't roll weather randomly for the NPCs doesn't mean it never rains for them.

Just because I don't roll random encounters for the NPCs doesn't mean they don't have encounters that fit the same probabilities. Although when I design a random encounter table for a given locale, those probabilities apply to any creature that happens to be in that region. And should our focus shift to an NPC, then I might very well roll on the random encounter table for them.

We can't compare this to the real world though...because the real world isn't a fiction being manipulated by a DM and players (not that we know of anyway :confused:).

I just did, and as far as the PCs and NPCS, they don't know it either. Only the players do.

Sure it does. It makes the story ABOUT them. Therefore, whatever happens to them matters more than what happens to Joe the Blacksmith 100 miles away. The rules and everything about the game is designed around your PCs. So the game functions differently for them. They have encounters because they are adventurers. NPCs have things happen to them.

So this is not to say that the fiction of the world has to acknowledge their specialness....although it can. They can be fated for great things or prophesied to achieve some monumental victory...they can be Ta'veren or bound by Ka or the Chosen Ones or any other fictional trope. But it's not required in the fiction. We can read a story about a character who is thrust into the midst of great happenings and realize that the story is about that character, but he's not some kind of Chosen One. But we still know he's the star of the show.

I know I'm drifting away from the point of the (already tangential) discussion, so I'll just summarize by saying that I don't think it's accurate to say that PCs...no matter how mundane they may be in their world...are not more important or special than NPCs. They certainly must be so.

No, they don't have to be so. For example, Drizzt, Wulfgar, Cattie-Brie, Regis, and Bruenor are a pretty unusual adventuring party. But it would be wrong to extrapolate that and suggest that the demographics of the world are 20% drow, 20% human barbarian, 20% human, 20% halfling, and 20% dwarven and that they all live in harmony. Any more than we can look at a wizard, a hobbit, and 12 dwarves as representative of their world. Sometimes they are special because they save the world (or inflict upon the world) and such. Even so, until that time, they are just another dwarf, drow, or hobbit, like so many others of their kind.

What happens to them matters more to them, and those of us who are following them. Sometimes they rise above that level, and do something that matters to more people. But most of the time, to Joe the Blacksmith 100 miles away, they don't even exist. Just because we've chosen to look in on the life of these four people or whatever doesn't make them anymore important than the amoeba that happens to be in the drop of water I put under a microscope.

Sure, I can agree with most of that. Because I would expect that a DM would always give consideration to the kind of area in question, and would determine encounters accordingly. You're not going to have a random encounter table for the Shire that has Smaug and the Witch King of Angmar and the Balrog on it just so you can have your PCs be challenged. DMs have total control over this...which is why I don't really get the complaint. If it's a one encounter a day kind of area, then go ahead and do that. If your group doesn't find one encounter days fun, then stop doing it and simply narrate it.

Where I disagree is in the Travel and Dungeoncrawl resting comment. Why can't they be different? I think that's a pretty suitable solution that has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread. Have long rests be impossible in the wilderness while on a journey. Then the entire journey is viewed as an "adventuring day" in that sense. You can have 3 or 18 encounters or anywhere in between as suited. Spread them out in a way that makes sense for the areas the PCs travel. Problem solved.

I'm one of the ones that doesn't like the idea of resting "being impossible" in the wilderness. Explain to me why setting up a camp and sleeping for 8 hours in the wilderness is not restful. Then explain it to the migratory barbarians that are always on a journey in the wilderness.

If 8 hours of rest, sleep, food and water is what is needed to recover hit points, etc., then that's what it takes, wherever you are. It might be a "suitable" game solution, but doesn't work for me as an in-world solution. Moreover, I think that we should be able to come up with a game solution that works for both. Give me good in-world reasons why that 8 hours of rest doesn't work, then I'll consider it.

For me, though, the other question is why does it matter if they can rest in the wilderness. I get that it matters for some people, because they are expecting something different from their game (an attrition system as best I can tell). But to me, it makes perfect sense that if you're in the wilderness, and you don't need to use the special abilities you recover via resting, then you'll have those abilities available. If those abilities are most commonly consumed in combat, and they don't have a combat for two days, then they don't use those abilities.
 

Huh, shoulda specified Tier II/III, by picking Tier 1 it's pretty impossible to come up with an encounter that's remotely threatening to a town. Ah, well, I don't suppose you'd be willing to redo with a higher Tier?

Well those tiers have different focuses...don't they. At tier 2 you're involved in saving cities and kingdoms... not towns. So given the assumptions for said tier... I can create 3 encounters centering on travel towards a mad wizard's tower whose encroaching forces happen to be a day away... Again 4 party members, we'll say 7th level XP Total: 6800

In or around the city

(2) CR 6 Invisible Stalkers - sent by the wizard into the city to hunt down and end the threat the adventurers pose as they are preparring to set out.

(5) CR 3 Professional mercenaries turned bandits (Veteran stats)- Originally hired to patrol the outskirts of the lands under the city's protection this professional mercenary company has taken to robbing those they were hired to protect and they've set their eyes on the PC's.

(2) CR 6 Wyverns _ The encroaching army has been depleting their hunting grounds pushing them closer and closer to the city.

After this point most of the encounters can revolve around the immediate threat of the wizard and his forces that are marching on the city

I may also have a quibble about 4 dire wolves only attacking lone travelers, considering a white room has 4 dires killing 40 commoners with no losses, but, eh, you do you.

Well, unless these wolves are abnormal or starving it doesn't seem like they would go out of their way to attack humans...if they have natural prey... especially with such a small pack.

And that last bit, where, after you built the encounters you considered how they fit in your worldbuilding -- that's been my point all along. If you have increasingly dangerous encounters as the party levels, it begins to become harder and harder to fit it in.

Well if I had context... a world with it's conceits already laid out... I wouldn't have to do that, consider them simply suggestions on how these encounters can fit into a general world with little to no effect on worldbuilding. However this is what I was referring to earlier when I said you are basically asking me to create a world on the fly in a forum thread... otherwise yeah it does look like justification after the fact.
 

Again I disagree... a mob of farmers due to BA can more easily take out 8 1/2 cultists than 20 1/8th cultists... also why are the cultists murdering so many farmers that farming dies?

They aren't, but the 5-7 encounters that day also take their toll. Then a few days or a week later another "adventuring day" happens, and then again, and again, and again. Those farmers are dead within a month without an army to protect them(not feasible) or moving to farm inside city walls.

This is what I mean by the broad "implications" statement... you're making assumptions that these cultists are literally out and about murdering and wantonly slaughtering the hamlet every single day.

No I'm not. They are just one of many, many, many frequent encounters.

Okay putting aside the rallying of the hamlet as a pretty ingrained fantasy trope... you're telling me rather than band together and fight/hang 8 people (or... you know hire some enterprising outsiders to end the full moon murders) 42 other people would just let them kill them off... really? See this makes no sense to me.
Rally against what? These are cultists, not marauders. They aren't attacking the town. Rather, they are coming in and killing/stealing a few people for nefarious purposes. By the time any rallying happens, they are long gone. The rallied townsfolk might get lucky and beat the next 5-7 encounters that hit them that day, though. Probably not, but they could.
 

UNLESS the world is just a backdrop for the PC's extraordinary adventures. Cultists appear an wreak havoc only when such has a role to play in the heroes' story arc. For centuries before, no one may have heard a peep from this cult it's just an old mostly-forgotten tale, the it just happens to spring up in a deadly resurgence just as a band of heroes just happen to band together who are able to stop them.
Because: fiction.
It defies credulity that things only happen to PCs.

When world building, the world is built and exists independent of the PCs. It's huge and has populations that do things independent of them, monsters that exist independent of them, and interactions that happen without them. If all you are doing is providing a bit of territory around the PCs that fades back into the ether as soon as they leave it, you aren't world building. You're encounter building.

Maybe that's where the two sides are going wrong. One side is talking about world building and the other side is talking about building encounters with terrain for the PCs to meet things in.
 

They aren't, but the 5-7 encounters that day also take their toll. Then a few days or a week later another "adventuring day" happens, and then again, and again, and again. Those farmers are dead within a month without an army to protect them(not feasible) or moving to farm inside city walls.

What 5-7 encounters that day? I don't think I'm understanding what you're getting at here... are you saying the farmers are having 5-7 encounters a day? Or maybe you're saying anytime the adventurers have an encounter the farmers do as well... If so... why?

No I'm not. They are just one of many, many, many frequent encounters.

For who?? NPC's? Are you saying you give every NPC in your world 5-7 encounters a day? Do monsters also have 5-7 encounters a day with other monsters? Or with higher level NPC's?

Rally against what? These are cultists, not marauders. They aren't attacking the town. Rather, they are coming in and killing/stealing a few people for nefarious purposes. By the time any rallying happens, they are long gone. The rallied townsfolk might get lucky and beat the next 5-7 encounters that hit them that day, though. Probably not, but they could.

Apparently they are perfect, never make a mistake, never ever seen, never leave a clue behind, cultists who live in a small hamlet. You're right how could they ever be discovered?? Heck how will the adventurers ever discover who they are if they're just that good... What 5-7 encounters?
 
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