D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)

[FrogReaver]

No RPG games, save boardgames, can be played right out of the box. I know that as a young DM I made quite a few mistakes. I still do. As for playing the encounter right out of the published supplements... I never, ever did that. Whatever the edition, I adapt the supplement to my groups. Most of the published adventures have whole experience gaps between levels. That is on purpose to help you insert some of your own created stuff to make the adventure truly your own. Or you can play it as they are if you use the mile stone system they provide (and nothing prevents you to include your own stuff...).



Some of the young DM I have coached were not even using feats... Imagine now those that had feats and were coming from older editions... Some of these games were a nightmare. I was not a savior, I simply showed them the UA encounter building advice and pointed them the ineffectiveness of the 5mwd. . Their games suddenly got better. They didn't needed a full training boot camp for their games. Just a nudge in the right direction. The rest, they did it by themselves. All of a sudden, these feats (where they were used) are no longuer OP in these games too.

I love to see a GWM, SS or even a CE plowing through mobs or even beating on a BBEGB. Sometimes it works out quite well. At other times, these feats are completly shut down. A GWM stuck in combat with a high AC opponent. A horde bypassing the S&B to go straight at the SS or CE. Those feats can be litteraly shut down almost effortlessly. Just vary the kind of encounters you create. Destroy the 5mwd (and I can't stress enough how this last one is important) that alone is the EVIL of 5e. It is the trap by which all sins and abuses can be put on.

And no matter how many mobs the GWM/SS or CE can plow through, they won't beat a fireball, ice storm or meteor swarm... And now I should add some priest spells too...

Those feats have absolutely nothing to do with a 5mwd. They are at will abilities. They don't recharge on rest. Having a 5mwd benefits them very little.

The only thing I'm seeing you did about the GWM was putting and enemy with a solid AC and a reaction for +2 more and then have that creature use the dodge action. Sounds like that creature was doing no damage because it's dodging. If that was the creatures tactics then I'd taken the OA and engage the other enemies. If it wanted to dodge while I could attack its friends then I'm just going to ignore it. That was an incompetent player. It had nothing to do with actually countering the feat.

 

[Yunru]

Those feats have absolutely nothing to do with a 5mwd. They are at will abilities. They don't recharge on rest. Having a 5mwd benefits them very little.

The only thing I'm seeing you did about the GWM was putting and enemy with a solid AC and a reaction for +2 more and then have that creature use the dodge action. Sounds like that creature was doing no damage because it's dodging. If that was the creatures tactics then I'd taken the OA and engage the other enemies. If it wanted to dodge while I could attack its friends then I'm just going to ignore it. That was an incompetent player. It had nothing to do with actually countering the feat.

Nonesense! Clearly it had Sentinel! [emoji14]

 

[Helldritch]

Those feats have absolutely nothing to do with a 5mwd. They are at will abilities. They don't recharge on rest. Having a 5mwd benefits them very little.

The only thing I'm seeing you did about the GWM was putting and enemy with a solid AC and a reaction for +2 more and then have that creature use the dodge action. Sounds like that creature was doing no damage because it's dodging. If that was the creatures tactics then I'd taken the OA and engage the other enemies. If it wanted to dodge while I could attack its friends then I'm just going to ignore it. That was an incompetent player. It had nothing to do with actually countering the feat.

Ok...
1) 5mwd with the feats. Spells are used to boost these feats to real power by removing the -5 penalty in some way or an other. Bless, haste, Battle Master precision strikes, advantage and god knows what a player can come up with. Yes the feats themselves are an at will power. The ways to work around the -5 penalties are not.

2) Of course you can go around a dodging target... if the map allows it. When the opponents are doing that, they're in a corridor, in an entryway or simply blocking a door. You'd have to use an action to push the target. Meaning 2 attacks of opportunities from 2 different foes (or more) if you want to bypass them. With Some foes, you might regret it. Saying that the players were incompetent is far from the truth. A DM letting you manoeuver however you like could be considered as much though.

3) On OA. With a hit, it will stop whatever declared amount movement you are trying to do, you know that yes? Then you have to take your action. Then you can use the rest of your move (if any) to, well... move. But you won't attack any other target than the ones that were dodging (assuming you or someone else pushed the target 5 feet, to allow you to move). And nothing prevents the damnable targets from going back and block your way again; forcing you to do the push and hope for no OA hit again. And what prevents them from pushing you back? And all the while, your friends or yourself are getting attack by ranged attackers.

4) About modifying AC.
Yes I do that when it is logical to do so. A knight without a shield is something out of place. Possible, but not that typical. Why would a gladiator use studded leather when he could get medium armor? For an additional 5 gold that gladiator would have a scale mail (AC 14) instead of the studded leather (AC 12). And for the knight? A shield is only 10 gold. I really wonder why on earth a knight wouldn't carry a shield. Some monsters were strangely designed...

All DM that I know of, modify monsters on the fly to suit their needs. A bit more hp here, less there. A higher or lower AC. It all depends on the story. Yes you can take the monsters as they are written. I do that most of the time. But in some fights, I shake things a bit just to destabilize the players. It works wonders. Not only for me, but for many. And such modifications are not really to be considered homebrew. They do not change how the game is played nor do they modify the rules. With power gamers, you must power monsters either with logical additions, better tactics or both. I don't go overboard and give magical items to every foes encountered. With starting players, I go easy. With veterans, I am reckless.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok...


3) On OA. With a hit, it will stop whatever declared amount movement you are trying to do, you know that yes? Then you have to take your action. Then you can use the rest of your move (if any) to, well... move. But you won't attack any other target than the ones that were dodging (assuming you or someone else pushed the target 5 feet, to allow you to move). And nothing prevents the damnable targets from going back and block your way again; forcing you to do the push and hope for no OA hit again. And what prevents them from pushing you back? And all the while, your friends or yourself are getting attack by ranged attackers.

OA's do not stop declared movement. It takes the sentinel feat to do that. Wow... just wow.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok...
1) 5mwd with the feats. Spells are used to boost these feats to real power by removing the -5 penalty in some way or an other. Bless, haste, Battle Master precision strikes, advantage and god knows what a player can come up with. Yes the feats themselves are an at will power. The ways to work around the -5 penalties are not.

2) Of course you can go around a dodging target... if the map allows it. When the opponents are doing that, they're in a corridor, in an entryway or simply blocking a door. You'd have to use an action to push the target. Meaning 2 attacks of opportunities from 2 different foes (or more) if you want to bypass them. With Some foes, you might regret it. Saying that the players were incompetent is far from the truth. A DM letting you manoeuver however you like could be considered as much though.

4) About modifying AC.
Yes I do that when it is logical to do so. A knight without a shield is something out of place. Possible, but not that typical. Why would a gladiator use studded leather when he could get medium armor? For an additional 5 gold that gladiator would have a scale mail (AC 14) instead of the studded leather (AC 12). And for the knight? A shield is only 10 gold. I really wonder why on earth a knight wouldn't carry a shield. Some monsters were strangely designed...

All DM that I know of, modify monsters on the fly to suit their needs. A bit more hp here, less there. A higher or lower AC. It all depends on the story. Yes you can take the monsters as they are written. I do that most of the time. But in some fights, I shake things a bit just to destabilize the players. It works wonders. Not only for me, but for many. And such modifications are not really to be considered homebrew. They do not change how the game is played nor do they modify the rules. With power gamers, you must power monsters either with logical additions, better tactics or both. I don't go overboard and give magical items to every foes encountered. With starting players, I go easy. With veterans, I am reckless.

1. A solid point. Though keep in mind most of those abilities are relatively low level and you can power precision attack for a whole adventuring day pretty easily without retreating to rest and without taking up high level spell slots. Haste is a bit of an outlier as it's a level 3 spell. But I don't see many GWM comparisons utilizing haste in their comparison any more. So there is a small power boost to GWM fighters with more rests I agree but it's not as pronounced as you are making it out to be.

There definitely is a problem with the 5mwd though. It's just a minor influence on GWM though.

2. There was no corridor in your knight example as the rest of the party went right by him to engage the other enemies. Once the fighter realized he was dodging like that he could easily have done the same for the price of a single OA attack. So incompetent player? He's attacking a creature that is clearly trying to keep him tied up with a very high AC (which negates the benefits of GWM on its own) and is dodging him to further decrease his DPS and he doesn't notice that he should be attacking something else when he clearly can?

Though this may have had something to do with your incorrect OA rules (or did you just homebrew them that way)?

4. I'm not nearly as concerned about modifying ac as long as you factor that into the xp and aren't simply doing it to negate a players chosen feat choice (which is usually the case). Even then an occasional challenge where you negate the feat with modified AC's is fine. But it shouldn't happen often.

 

[FrogReaver]

So the fighter barbarian with elven accuracy and using precision (assuming I added precision maneuver into the equation correctly) is telling me that the fighter barbarian with a greatsword does more damage than your crit fisher in most situations. No magic weapon. No other abilities used except barbarian rage, reckless attack and precision attack. Requires 11 levels of fighter and 2 levels of barbarian. I am looking at level 20 DPR. Any other classes can be used afterwards.

AC DPR
11 89.35
12 89.27
13 89.07
14 88.68
15 88.03
16 87.05
17 85.70
18 83.90
19 81.58
20 78.69
21 75.16
22 70.92
23 65.92
24 60.08
25 53.35
26 45.66
27 36.94
28 27.13
29 16.18
30 16.18

@Yunru

As requested. Here is the Champion 17 Barbarian 3 DPR. Reckless Attack (advantage), GWM (both -5/+10 and chance for the bonus action attack on a critical), Improved critical (15th level, so 15% crit chance, assuming a crit on an 18 or 19 also auto hits since I haven't checked the rule), Elcen Accuracy, Rage damage bonus, Greatsword Wielder

AC DPR
11 106.80
12 106.07
13 104.99
14 103.47
15 101.46
16 98.87
17 95.63
18 91.68
19 86.95
20 81.35
21 74.83
22 67.30
23 58.69
24 48.95
25 48.95
26 48.95
27 48.95
28 48.95
29 48.95
30 48.95

 

[Yunru]

As requested. Here is the Champion 17 Barbarian 3 DPR.

11106.80
12106.07
13104.99
14103.47
15101.46
1698.87
1795.63
1891.68
1986.95
2081.35
2174.83
2267.30
2358.69
2448.95
2548.95
2648.95
2748.95
2848.95
2948.95
3048.95

Those numbets are definitely off by a magnitude of at least 100 [emoji14]

(Edit: Nope, just the app eating formatting.)

How are you managing to break 100? Rage bonus?

 

[FrogReaver]

Those numbets are definitely off by a magnitude of at least 100 [emoji14]
(How are you managing to break 100? Rage bonus?)

Oh yes rage bonus is factored. Wow the formatting is horrendous. The first 2 numbers in each of your numbers is the AC.

It gets over 100 against ac 11 without rage bonus as well.

 

[FrogReaver]

Correction that's 99.33 damage without rage bonus

 

[Helldritch]

OA's do not stop declared movement. It takes the sentinel feat to do that. Wow... just wow.

Wow to you. Opportunity stop declared movement p.195 of the PHB. Sentinel feat reduces your movement to zero. Top right side paragraph just under the boxed text.

Meaning: I move to the archer, leaving the dodger in the dust. I need 20 feet to reach the archer. The dodger hit with OA. Bang! You lost 20 feet to your movement. You have to use your action to either: Attack, or continue to move an other 30 feet. Which could be interrupted by an other OA if an other foe is in range. Then when your action is over; you move the rest of your movement that is 10 feet.

With the sentinel feat, your movement is reduced to zero, forcing you to attack or dodge. You wouldn't be able to use your action to move as your movement is now zero.

You should re read some of the mechanics of the game... But it is a common mistakes that I have often seen.