D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

[WayneLigon]

Adding gays to make ideological point (even if I agree with that ideology): bad - because it's the wrong medium to discuss the issue.

There is no INappropriate medium. This is the point of being inclusive, to show that such things are to be treated as totally normative, so they could pop up anywhere. The point is actually not to highlight the difference but to make the difference so normalized that it ceases to be a difference - so that, eventually, places like wherever you're teaching don't even notice the sex of the person that the blacksmith has as a mate.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Once again, no problem with black characters. No problem with gay characters. The problem lies in the sentence, "I wasn't going to send out another book with no..." Once again, minor point. I honestly regret starting this discussion because it makes all sides of the issue look ridiculous for even arguing about this.

One thing discussion keeps overlooking is that the propaganda point here is not actually, "people like me exist." It is normalization: "people like me exist and are no different from anybody else."

The distinction is hard to see if you already buy into the viewpoint which is being normalized. If you want to understand how Crawford's viewpoint looks to someone who thinks homosexuality is deviant, try plugging in a behavior or lifestyle that you yourself think is deviant.

E.g. a neo-Nazi game designer says, "All of my adventure paths will have blood purists NPCs in them. After all, I wasn't about to let Storm King's Thunder ship and not acknowledge that people like me exist." Does that make you uncomfortable?

If Nazis don't bother you, try pedophiles, Christians, sociopaths, or lawyers. Whatever makes you uncomfortable in real life. Then imagine someone deliberately inserting people with those traits into the background of adventures with the subtext that other NPCs are supposed to treat the person's [whatever]ism as no big deal. Now can you see why it's a form of propaganda?

Let's keep propaganda out of gaming please. And let's keep Nazis out of gaming too, except as drow.

 

[tombowings]

It's quite hard to represent your views. They seem to shift.

Please state clearly what you think about the inclusion of gay characters in D&D products.

Also please state clearly, in the same post, what you think about the inclusion of straight characters in D&D products.

Then we'll be clear and won't make the mistake of misrepresenting you.

Inclusion of gay characters: Don't really care.

Inclusion of straight characters: Don't really care.

Using media to as a way to promote any ideology, whether I agree, disagree, or am unsure about: Wrong medium. Find a podium.

 

[Morrus]

I really hate that the existence of gold pieces advances the capitalist agenda. Keep agendas (and gold pieces) out of D&D!

I also hate that swords advance the metallurgy agenda. Keep agendas (and steel) out of D&D!

Wait, what? Were those not the right agendas? Is it just some agendas?

 

[tombowings]

One thing discussion keeps overlooking is that the propaganda point here is not actually, "people like me exist." It is normalization: "people like me exist and are no different from anybody else."

The distinction is hard to see if you already buy into the viewpoint which is being normalized. If you want to understand how Crawford's viewpoint looks to someone who thinks homosexuality is deviant, try plugging in a behavior or lifestyle that you yourself think is deviant.

E.g. a neo-Nazi game designer says, "All of my adventure paths will have blood purists NPCs in them. After all, I wasn't about to let Storm King's Thunder ship and not acknowledge that people like me exist." Does that make you uncomfortable?

If Nazis don't bother you, try pedophiles, Christians, sociopaths, or lawyers. Whatever makes you uncomfortable in real life. Then imagine someone deliberately inserting people with those traits into the background of adventures with the subtext that other NPCs are supposed to treat the person's [whatever]ism as no big deal. Now can you see why it's a form of propaganda?

Let's keep propaganda out of gaming please. And let's keep Nazis out of gaming too, except as drow.

Honestly, none of these people bother me. It's a game. It's completely separate from the real world. That's what I like about it. My entire point can be summarized as follows: It's a game, how about we all stop trying to push out agenda with it, alright.

 

[Mallus]

How does including homosexuality references for the sake of saying there are homosexuals in the world, increase my gaming fun or compel me to play a gay adventurer?

Maybe this isn't about you. And note that Crawford says nothing about compelling anyone to do anything.

DM:"You just slew Alfhahm the Great. And by the way, he was gay."
DM:"You just slew Alfhahm the Great. And by the way, he was straight."

Apparently one needs to be mentioned and the other one does not.

Pop quiz: in what year was heterosexual marriage legalized in the United States?

 

[Ristamar]

Because I mentioned this as a throw away comment and have spent the last 20 pages having to explain myself. Oh, the wonders of the internet.

Okay, you're concerned. Perhaps you can elucidate? You dislike the medium. Why are you concerned? Realistically, what are the potential dangers from this revelation?

 

[tombowings]

I really hate that the existence of gold pieces advances the capitalist agenda. Keep agendas (and gold pieces) out of D&D!

I also hate that swords advance the metallurgy agenda. Keep agendas (and steel) out of D&D!

Wait, what? Were those not the right agendas? Is it just some agendas?

Because agenda applies motivation. No one is actively trying to use gold pieces or swords to advance one. That's the difference.

 

[Caliban]

Tombowings doesn't object to gay characters being included.

Tombowings objects to Jeremy Crawford telling people why they were included.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Gotcha. So game designers just need to get you used to it. Good tip - thanks! We’ll increase the inclusiveness even more.



Because what’s best for you isn’t necessarily right. You would choose inclusive media because you were a good person.
L

So to you how inclusive a piece of media is, be it book, game, TV show, is the most important thing? Book A is better written with tighter plotting and characters than Book B, but book B is more inclusive so you would prefer that one? A good person would prefer to read book B and a less good person would read book A? Just trying to understand your POV.