D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

[FrogReaver]

I get out enough to not have a problem with gay folks kissing.


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Since when did this become about you? I never said cmad dislikes gay people kissing in public did I?

 

[cmad1977]

Since when did this become about you? I never said cmad dislikes gay people kissing in public did I?

You very clearly spoke about me and everyone I know who doesn't have the issue you have.
'Most of the western world...'
speak for yourself and your own issues.


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[WayneLigon]

Honestly I just don't get gay pride parades. Are they for promoting an end to sexual orientation stigma, or they just "We're gay and proud"?
Because the former is a cause I support, but the latter is an example of "Good for you, stop waving it in my face."
I understand "coming out" to family and friends, but total strangers?
Of course if it's the former then... well I can't think of any other examples of that behaviour.

There's a lot of reasons they occur. They started after a particular egregious round of police brutality against gays in the 70's. In the States, in many states, just being gay or engaging in gay activities was illegal, as in they could and did throw you in jail for it. Even where it was not written down as an illegal activity, cops were well aware that they could harass gay people and nobody would ever question it. Somebody firebombs a gay club? It would get the most cursory investigation possible - generally only if surrounding business was hurt - and then be swept under the rug. Murder a gay woman? She got what she deserved. Hold a dude's hand in public? Expect to be spat on, or attacked, or asked to get off the bus. Gay people could be denied employment, housing, adoption, medical care, pretty much any service you can name and they could be freely and legally denied it. There was a huge conflation of homosexuality with pedophilia. Though it's gotten better, these things still do occur. Quieter, sometimes, more hidden, but they still occur.

All because of something as silly as what sex they were attracted to.

Pride parades started as a push-back against that attitude, to, if needed, force the issue and force their recognition as human beings with the same rights and privileges as anyone else. It is an announcement and acknowledgement that 'I have done nothing wrong , and I do not need to be ashamed of what I am'. So many, many people have killed themselves over not being able to get past being rejected by society that such displays are important.

On the road past mere tolerance to acceptance, normalization, and assimilation, you can expect things to get more 'in your face' than less.

 

[Bagpuss]

As far as Greece and Rome, that's hardly medieval Europe. The acceptance of Christianity created many taboos that didn't exist before. However, in a Greek or Roman inspired campaign, I would expect homosexually to be comparatively commonplace.

Which D&D world has seen the acceptance of Christianity? Compared to which D&D worlds have medusa, pegasus, tritons, chimera and a host of other Greek myths?

 

[MechaPilot]

But it does matter what sex two people kissing in public are Mecha. It matters to a large number of people. You may wish that it didn't matter. It may not even be right that it matters. But it does matter.

Keep marginalizing those peoples comfort zones all you want. Whatever it takes so you don't have to treat them like real human being with real feelings right?

A person should not be marginalized for the sake of someone's comfort. That is neither respect nor equality.

 

[FrogReaver]

It is not wrong to envy others' ability to be themselves in public, anymore than it is wrong for the slave to envy another man's freedom.




Mutual respect also means having respect for each other as people, not the shallow respecting of people's comfort levels. Equality is predicated on this respect for the personhood of others.

1. You seriously gotta stop comparing the gay cause to slavery. It harms your position more than helps it.

2. Yes respect for each other as people also means respecting each others emotions. It means respecting that black people can call each other "n...a" but that white people cannot. Is that fair and equal on the level of actions? Heck no. But will I respect that? Of course and it's right for me to because blacks are people with emotions and they get to determine what causes them offense and that's what makes their request in that regard fair and equal even though it leads to different actions for members of different groups.

Being offended by certain actions and not by others is part of being a person. Those offensive actions don't even have to make logical sense. They can come from a purely emotional level. The thing is, the right thing to do is respect those sensitivities when you can. If those sensitivies aren't logical and are purely from an emotional level then they will eventually break down given time. But it won't be the fast kind of change you want to see.

 

[FrogReaver]

A person should not be marginalized for the sake of someone's comfort. That is neither respect nor equality.

That isn't marginalizing a person. Seriosuly? How is that marginalizing anyone?

 

[Jester David]

If you think respecting others comfort zones affects your ability to lead a full life then something is wrong. Now if their comfort zone was gays cannot exist that would be a different story. But if the comfort zone is we are not comfortable seeing public displays of homo affection isn't that a bit different? I'm not asking you to go away or not exist, just asking you to respect me. Maybe some point we will even come around to being okay with it as the occasional slip up is seen and forgiven and as we as a society gets more used to it.

By "we" in the above, you really mean "you".

But doing it what I would call the right way isn't going to give gays instant gratification. It will take time.

They shouldn't have to wait on you deciding it's okay for them to be able to live their lives. Black people didn't wait for white people to be okay with them before pushing for equality. Before challenging separate but equal.

This is the crux of the issue. People don't change until acted upon by an outside stimuli. You're *never* going to be okay with it unless you're exposed to it. You're not going to just wake up and be okay with same sex people people kissing.

It's taken decades to get this far. The first male homosexual kiss on television aired only seventeen years ago, while the first interracial kiss was back in '68. How much longer should they have to wait to be able to hold their partner's hand in public? Kiss them goodbye? Tell them they love them at a bus stop? Or any of the many, many things heterosexual couples can just do without a thought.

People are not slaves to their desires, I personally know people who are attracted to others of the same sex but choose to live an asexual or heterosexual life because according to their religious beliefs, homosexual behavior is morally wrong. Lifestyle is a perfectly good word for behavior. One of the reasons liberals and conservative (US definitions) tend to talk past each other on this issue is that conservatives think in terms of behavior while liberals think in terms of desire.

That's not cool.
First, because it's not about desire. That's reducing it to physical urges. It's about love and attraction. You can control your physical urges but you cannot change who you fall in love with. You cannot change who you find attractive. You can pretend. But that's living a lie.

It's totally fine for someone who has LGBTQ urges and leanings to decide to abstain from sexuality for religious reasons. Just like it's okay for heterosexual and cis people to do the same when they join the priesthood or a convent.

But it's NOT okay for them to adopt the pretence of a heterosexual lifestyle, because that's involving someone else in their lie. Being in a loveless marriage is not an ideal situation for any party, and it's denying the other partner the opportunity to find someone who loves them in return. (Unless they know and are wholly aware of the situation... and aren't fooling themselves into thinking their partner can change.) Especially when kids become involved.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is the crux of the issue. People don't change until acted upon by an outside stimuli. You're *never* going to be okay with it unless you're exposed to it. You're not going to just wake up and be okay with same sex people people kissing.

Exhibit A that gay's really do want to "force it down my throat".

 

[Jester David]

My attitudes used to mirror FrogReaver's. My attitude to two women kiss was "ewww". I didn't want to see that. I was okay with them doing in private, but I didn't want to see it.
I was 14 at the time. I believe it was in response to a Melissa Etheridge video.
Then someone called me on my BS, questioning why it mattered to me in the slightest what other people did. And I grew up a little.