D&D 5E Players Self-Assigning Rolls

[Satyrn]

No, it's because you said my leg was caught in the bear trap. Everyone knows bear traps hug you around the torso, not the legs. You can't walk that back now, I based my whole approach on it!

If only you followed [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s advice, and asked to roll an Intelligence check to verify that thing "everyone knows" is really true.

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed

 

[iserith]

If only you followed [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s advice, and asked to roll an Intelligence check to verify that thing "everyone knows" is really true.

*explodes in a fiery rage*

 

[Satyrn]

*explodes in a fiery rage*

 

[Lanefan]

Sure, but these smart bears are setting bear traps? Something doesn't add up.

Sure it does. The bears are cleverly disguising their traps as bear traps to fool the dumb humans into thinking them harmless, so when they go to check the bait...

**SNAP!**

 

[Lanefan]

DM: You enter a small room. A worn stone table stands in the center of the room.
PLAYER: I pick up the table.
***DM: It looks like it weighs a ton.
PLAYER: Oh, never mind.
PLAYER: Oh, ok. Guys, maybe we can all push this table together and get it to move across the room?
PLAYERS: Sounds like a great plan.
DM: Ok, only three of you can get around the table.
PLAYERS: Ok, Bob, Rob and Job will try to push the table towards the door.
DM: Great. You three, give me a group Athletics check.

The only thing I-as-DM would have done differently here is the line where I inserted '***' would instead read: DM: OK, you try to pick up the table and immediately realize it's way too heavy. It is made of stone, after all. All you manage is to budge it just enough to tell you it's not attached to the floor.

And in case it matters, had a die roll been attached to the declaration, as in "I pick up the table <roll> Athletics check adds to 21" my response as DM would have been the same.

In your stated case you describe a table, the player declares an action then you stop before resolution to tell them it clearly looks like it weighs a ton and then the player uses that info to change their mind.

i reference it as a case of not having given the player enough info to make a reasonable choice.

Disagree. The room was described just fine - nothing in it except a worn stone table in the middle. The player states an action "I pick up the table" without any further ado, the result of which is that the character determines the table is too heavy to lift.

Had the stated action been "I check out the table" then that would have been a reasonable place to give info about its probable weight, along with how dusty it is and any other pertinent info. But the player-in-character jumped straight to "I pick up the table" leaving the DM no option but to respond to that declaration.

then now you come back with how not giving an exact weight may not have been a mistake.

Yeah, I'm not sure why [MENTION=6777696]redrick[/MENTION] would say that was a mistake. I sure don't think it was.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

You enter the numbers scratched onto the beartrap. Congratulations! You have successfully registed your copy of Windows 3.1. You hear a storm approaching from the East. A bear blocks the West.

>Go South

 

[Satyrn]

Yeah, I'm not sure why @redrick would say that was a mistake. I sure don't think it was.

I think he just meant that if the DM had meant for the table's weight to be its defining feature, then to not mention that up front would be a (very small) mistake. The sort of mistake that has me (figuratively) kicking myself and thinking danggit! I was gonna describe that better."

Sort of like if I've described a 100-foot wide chasm poorly enough that the players say "we'll jump across it."

 

[Satyrn]

>Go South

I am not the sort of textbased adventure that would do that before marriage.

 

[Hriston]

Whatever cart before horse ideas you have did not stop numerous examples to advocate for the approach at all... Usually easy cases for search for instance.

I don't think those were examples of characters "using" skills. They were examples of player action declarations that were judged successful by the DM without needing to resort to an ability check.

All i am asking about is to post other significant cases where the skills less obvioys to normal folks where that same strategy is just as applicable.

The strategy is always applicable. It's just that a particular skill won't necessarily come into play unless the outcome of the declared action is in doubt.

It seems to draw not "here is an arcana case" or "here is a disease treat case" but evasions or dodges.

What I find inadequate about such "cases" is that it's very difficult to separate the adjudication of an action declaration from the particular situation from which it arises, and presenting the full context may take quite a bit of background explanation.

Also, as shown in iirc even some published products proficiency itself can be a determinant of failure not an after thought made only once the GM decides a roll is needed.

Some of the posters in this thread have also said they take into account a character's proficiencies when determining whether a given task's outcome is a success, a failure, or indeterminate, but I don't do that when I DM. I judge whether the player's declared action has a certain outcome on its own merits, and if it doesn't, only then does the character's proficiency in a skill have an effect in the form of adding a modifier to the die-roll.

 

[Lanefan]

However, a key element is this - if it was *important to the scene* that the table cannot be moved by one person, then (barring just flat out error on my part) i *would* have thrown in a word like massive, heavy or something into the original description. Or if it was important to the scene that the table cannot be moved alone but it looks like it could (plot point of why is this table stuck here so solidly i can't move it") that might be not an error or omission in description at all.

If it was *not* important to the scene whether or not the table can be moved, then i would at that assign in my mind up a description of the table that made it possible the table can be moved and then adjudicate the result as normally - especially if the character was a high strength proficient in athletics character. 17 is enough to beat moderate DCs so... likely its a success and i continue appropriately.

Now this is something that annoys me: DMs red-flagging what's important via how they describe things. It's just another form of lead-'em-by-the-nose, really.

The relative importance (if any) of moving the table isn't known to the characters when they enter the room, and it's up to them to figure it out. The presence of the table at all might be a 'tell' if surrounding rooms have been completely empty, for example; and if they think to move it and search the floor revealed they might find a secret door leading down to a whole new level. But if they don't think to move it they'll miss that level - so be it.

Remember the rule of yes i mentioned from time to time - "say yes unless their is a compelling reason to say no." odds are with a 17 (esp for a high strength and athletic character), the result is a moved table. 17 beats moderate DC and moving a table is something even i can do and my physical abilities which are well below what would pass as moderate in that game world. heck, my own
personal stats would not be legal scores on a point buy where 8 is the lowest, but i can move every table in my house and most tables i encounter.

So, barring a compelling reason to say no... on a roll of 17, you move the table and we move on to what happens then.

Yeah, I guess I'm not a proponent of the 'rule of yes' when taken to the point that some game systems seem to want. There's no rule saying characters have to succeed at whatever they try, or be compass-pointed at the real clues. Red herrings and false trails are allowed, and if a session or two are spent on following them so what? They're allowed to miss things, they're expected to fail now and then, and - just like real life - sometimes they're going to get frustrated because they can't find what they're looking for. (continued example from upthread: they missed the key in the dresser drawer on level one and now they can't release the captured princess on level 3 without chopping her hands off)

As for real-world examples: one of my players has an oak table in his place - two strong people can barely lift it. Were that same table made of stone: good luck.

Lanefan