OSR What Has Caused the OSR Revival?

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
You are changing the analogy away fro one fitting the real-life situation.

NOOO, but the chicken!!!!

(and you changed the analogy first, you analogy changer you)

I don't care about how the conversation got here, what I care about is what you actually believe.

I actually sort of do care, because this is essentially a perpetual motion argument machine.

"Tony: This

Zac: How dare you say that, that is clearly wrong!"

Tony: but I'm saying this

Zac: but that is wrong!

Anc: I'm pretty sure he's trying to say this, not that

Tony: Yes, I am saying this, not that

Zac: You clearly are saying that, now admit that that is wrong!

Anc: Chicken?

Zac: your chicken is wrong!!"


This will go on forever until:

1: Morrus closes the site
2: One of us gets bored
3: Thermal death of the universe.

It's also interesting (edit: how we got here) because you said earlier
True but after however many years watching this debate on the internet, I think everyone knows the second half of that argument is always "And that's why people like it, definitely not because the new content is good or the old mechanics are often suited to their purpose"

This hasn't really happened. (Edit: in this thread)

All this time you could have spent instead outlaying the qualities and philosophies of the OSR movement...

edit: I'm trying to de-rail the derailment so we can get back on track, but it seems surprisingly difficult.

Edit two: tried to clarify a bit
 
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Zak S

Guest
NOOO, but the chicken!!!!

(and you changed the analogy first, you analogy changer you)



I actually sort of do care, because this is essentially a perpetual motion argument machine.

"Tony: This

Zac: How dare you say that, that is clearly wrong!"

Tony: but I'm saying this

Zac: but that is wrong!

Anc: I'm pretty sure he's trying to say this, not that

Tony: Yes, I am saying this, not that

Zac: You clearly are saying that, now admit that that is wrong!

Anc: Chicken?

Zac: your chicken is wrong!!"


This will go on forever until:

1: Morrus closes the site
2: One of us gets bored
3: Thermal death of the universe.

It's also interesting because you said earlier


This hasn't really happened.

All this time you could have spent instead outlaying the qualities and philosophies of the OSR movement...

edit: I'm trying to de-rail the derailment so we can get back on track, but it seems surprisingly difficult.

Im not here to "lay out qualities and philosophies". This isn't outreach, it's fact-checking.

Like I said:

.If and only if Tony is saying the many OSR fans for whom nostalgia could not possibly be their motive don't exist then he's basically denying a lot of peoples' lived experience.

.If and only if Tony is saying the many OSR fans for whom nostalgia could not possibly be their motive exist but he is assuming they are dwarfed by those for whom nostalgia IS an important factor (despite the fact that looking at the online chatter, these people specifically declaim nostalgia is their motive), where is his proof? Because claiming you know what someone wants more than they do is an accusation and requires proof.

.If and only if Tony is saying the many OSR fans for whom nostalgia could not possibly be their motive exist but he is assuming they are dwarfed by those for whom nostalgia IS an important factor, why don't sales of nostalgic OSR products dwarf those of the ones created by people interested in new ideas and who feel no nostalgic pull?

If Tony thinks none of those things: Then we're done with this part ofthe conversation as far as I;m concerned.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Interesting blog.
It strikes me as relating an experience in personal growth. He went from an isolated teenager, to an engaged adult.
I'll note two things - one we've gone from the general "people", "someone" etc to the particular - this guy.
Nod. He certainly had no reason to be even second-hand 'nostalgic' for the D&D of the 80s, a perfect example of what Zak has been talking past me about...
I am struck about how a lot of the problems, and solutions, aren't really mechanically derived! They are more about... the philosophy of adventuring, GMing, adventure design. He talks about lack of creativity, railroading, bored players... and talks about blogging, inspiration, community. Those are all great, wonderful things... but are they mechanics?
Nope, they're not mechanics, nor directly attributable to mechanics. Mostly attitude, or as I said above 'engagement.' I think it illustrates what I was saying about players generally seeking the experience of a game, and judging the game by that experience, rather than looking for superior mechanics, and analyzing each game from that perspective. (Of course, I make that generalization as someone who is an exception to it.)

... are we even talking about the same thing at all?
Sure doesn't seem like it.

edit: I'm trying to de-rail the derailment so we can get back on track, but it seems surprisingly difficult.

Edit two: tried to clarify a bit
That'd be a re-railment, yes?

I'm game...

The comparative popularity of OSR is part of the fad-cycling of our little hobby. Nostalgia may not feel like the right label for those of us who have been with it the whole time, but it's pretty close: the appeal of OSR is it's similarity to the game of the past...
I mean, isn't that the point of labeling it 'OSR' in the first place?
It's not the New Wave Revolution, it's the Old School

D&D was a fad, fads flop, and when they do people always say they're dead & gone for good. Then the fad comes back, and people always say its here to stay.

But, really, it's only the popular perception that cycles, the core enthusiasts stick around through the whole cycle, it's not nostalgia for them (OK, us, in this case), because it's not in the past, it's been our present the whole time. Nostalgia lures in returning fans who remember the original fad and associate it with a happier/more-hopeful/whatever time of their youth. Nostalgia can be the occasional pang for us long-timers, too, but we're already deeply committed. For some ongoing & returning players, that nostalgia shines through and informs their engagement with the hobby, making it about being 'true' to the legacy or school or however they choose to put it, of the past. That resonates with some folks, puts off others, it's a thing, but not the thing that makes the come-back happen.

Really, there is no 'the thing,' fads and their comebacks are a confluence of cultural events that generate excitement and buzz that lasts for a while.

D&D's come-back could have been in the early oughts, that'd've been closer to the typical 20 year cycle, but the D&D - d20 - of the day didn't lure back returning players the way 5e has been doing, so the cycle that builds to a come-back - Returning Fans coming back to the hobby, finding Hard Core fans keeping the faith, and generating buzz and excitement that draws in New Blood - was broken.
OSRIC dropped in 2006 into what was essentially a vacuum: no other version of D&D or d20 quite catered to Returning players' expectations and sensibilities (Hackmaster was as much a parodying as catering, IMHO). Eventually, in 2010, WotC reacted to OSR's success by throwing a classic cover on a basic set (filled with very un-classic rules) and putting out re-prints of AD&D - it did not go well, and D&D retired from the field for a couple of years to emerge as the gloriously come-back-ready 5e. That has been going well. Really well.

OSR was obviously part of that, arguably a critical part, and presumably still benefits from all the buzz and attitude that WotC's mishandling of it's brand generated.

And, it's not like that's the whole story. There were shady back-room business fiascos at Hasbro, there was division in the hard-core ranks, books were burned and friendships ended...
...but, there's also been a longer term trend towards nerd culture mainstreaming. RPGing, if you think of it broadly, has already mainstreamed - CRPGs and MMORPGs, but still the mainstream no longer thinks RPG only stands for Rocket-Propelled Grenade. TTRPGing has missed the mainstream boat several times, it (and LARPs) might have gone mainstream in the 90s if Kindred had taken off instead of Buffy, for instance, propelling WWGS & MET/Storyteller to take D&D's place as the only RPG with mainstream name recognition. Or, it could've happened when d20 went open-source, if the d20 systems had been much more accessible. Or it could have happened when D&D, itself did get much more accessible to new players, if the reaction against those changes hadn't poisoned the community. But, until recently, through bizarre comedies of errors and perfect storms, it didn't.

The last couple years Boardgames have staged a huge resurgence, as well, dwarfing TTRPGs, but giving them a chance at greater mainstream exposure at gaming stores everywhere - that has also helped. 5e D&D has buzz going at the same time, generated by happy Returning players, and isn't hated by any fragment of the Hard-Core enough to poison the well, it's drawing in New players and moving units like the hobby hasn't since the fad years (though still not equal to what it was doing in the fad years).
As the even-more-authentic-than-official-D&D D&D-alternative, OSR can only benefit from that environment.
 
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diaglo

Adventurer
My guess is a combination of nostalgia and a contrary reaction to comprehensive/fiddly rule sets.

i've been pushing for OD&D(1974) to be in print since 1979 when it went out of print. i have wanted new stuff for it for decades. i even bought all the other editions so i could convert the material for my OD&D(1974) campaign.

diaglo "it ain't nostalgia if that is what you are playing" Ooi
see my signature.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
i've been pushing for OD&D(1974) to be in print since 1979 when it went out of print. i have wanted new stuff for it for decades. i even bought all the other editions so i could convert the material for my OD&D(1974) campaign.

diaglo "it ain't nostalgia if that is what you are playing" Ooi
see my signature.

Yeah, but revivals aren't fueled by the people already engaged; they're fueled by all the new people trying it out. Otherwise it ain't a revival.
 

diaglo

Adventurer
Yeah, but revivals aren't fueled by the people already engaged; they're fueled by all the new people trying it out. Otherwise it ain't a revival.

but i'm buying their stuff. it is the closest to what i use and requires the least conversions. i'm not buying PF or 5ed since it requires more work. and there is plenty of OSR available.
 

i've been pushing for OD&D(1974) to be in print since 1979 when it went out of print. i have wanted new stuff for it for decades. i even bought all the other editions so i could convert the material for my OD&D(1974) campaign.

diaglo "it ain't nostalgia if that is what you are playing" Ooi
see my signature.
Have you considered starting an OD&D video stream? I hear those are a great way to promote a game.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
i've been pushing for OD&D(1974) to be in print since 1979 when it went out of print. i have wanted new stuff for it for decades. i even bought all the other editions so i could convert the material for my OD&D(1974) campaign.

diaglo "it ain't nostalgia if that is what you are playing" Ooi
see my signature.

Based on my research in the topic, there are a few retroclones that have resurrected that ruleset

Oh and your signature is missing :p
 

jagerfury

Explorer
The success and popularity of the OSR rests on the quality of adventure content. As a game master the stuff is so full of flavor and imagination I don't need to change much. The adventures coming out of this DIY OSR communities ears makes me go "I gotta run this, and I know just how I want to do it!" Stuff from Mongoose and WotC and Hero Games and Steve Jackson, well all they ever got me to feel is bad that it cost so much and say "I'll have to do a lot of work to make this useful at the table." I got so used to buying game product and maybe getting one or two interesting bits I might be able to use that I was bowled over by the sheer awesomeness coming out of this DIY community. That is why it gets my money. The fact that much of it also comes with an intent to be useful at the table in real time just puts it far and above whatever big name companies are putting out there.

I use this OSR material in my Classic Traveller campaign, my Renaissance campaign (a d100 based game), and my own (U)(S)(R) rules-light creations. So I use the product because it makes my games better due to quality and incredible ideas of use. Quelong cost me five dollars and it is so good I can use it in any game which I think it fits. Or just bits of it. I can get more mileage out of one random table from that adventure then any big-named publishers stuff currently available.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
We have a rather nice wiki page right here which collates them, too:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showwiki.php?title=Retroclones-and-Older-D-and-D-Editions

you missed mine!

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/180409/5e-Old-School-and-Oriental-Adventures

:.-(

Then again, I'm not sure it qualifies for the page anyways...plus the post is from LONG before I even wrote the document.

Based on my research in the topic, there are a few retroclones that have resurrected that ruleset

Oh and your signature is missing :p

Mine is one of them...at least within the confines of 5e to the maximum that I thought was legally possible and plausible.
 

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