D&D 5E "Warlord" Fighter sub-class from MMHFT podcast. Further duscussion.

[mellored]

Also, I don't think all the stuff will fit.

While I like the ideas, all the stuff, mixed with fighters high damage just too much for a single class.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, I don't think all the stuff will fit.

While I like the ideas, all the stuff, mixed with fighters high damage just too much for a single class.

Yea I think so too. His version is a bit strong and by the time it's toned back im not sure if it will make a better warlord than a battle master

 

[Tony Vargas]

Also, I don't think all the stuff will fit.

While I like the ideas, all the stuff, mixed with fighters high damage just too much for a single class.

Maybe I missed the reasoning - did he go into why tactical insight and Gambits drew off different resource pools?

I'd think it'd make more sense, if not for this sub-class, then for an actual Warlord class, to have one daily resource pool, analogous to CS Dice or tactical insight, fueling all the warlord's tricks.

 

[mellored]

Maybe I missed the reasoning - did he go into why tactical insight and Gambits drew off different resource pools?

only because he was trying to copy the eldrich knight power level, with cantrip and spells. Not any story reason.
Though he did mention not wanting to spam the same maneuvers.

I'd think it'd make more sense, if not for this sub-class, then for an actual Warlord class, to have one daily resource pool, analogous to CS Dice or tactical insight, fueling all the warlord's tricks.

IMO, Base warlord should be at-will features only (or psudo-at-will, like letting people spend hit dice, or triggering on a condition, like initiative). With the daily resources in the sub-class.

This way, you can have a "simple" warlord, like the champion, and knocks all enemies prone when they roll a 1, or something similar.

It's also why I moved the zone idea into a sub-class for my homebrew warlord.

 

[FrogReaver]

only because he was trying to copy the eldrich knight power level, with cantrip and spells. Not any story reason.
Though he did mention not wanting to spam the same maneuvers.
IMO, Base warlord should be at-will features only (or psudo-at-will, like letting people spend hit dice, or triggering on a condition, like initiative). With the daily resources in the sub-class.

This way, you can have a "simple" warlord, like the champion, and knocks all enemies prone when they roll a 1, or something similar.

It's also why I moved the zone idea into a sub-class for my homebrew warlord.

If base warlord is only at will features then healing or attack granting likely won't be available to him in the base class?

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe I missed the reasoning - did he go into why tactical insight and Gambits drew off different resource pools?

I'd think it'd make more sense, if not for this sub-class, then for an actual Warlord class, to have one daily resource pool, analogous to CS Dice or tactical insight, fueling all the warlord's tricks.

I dislike the 2 resource pools as well. I think you have to make options tactically interesting if you want to eliminate spam. Then again most classes "spam" the same stuff over and over. So while I agree with him I would rather see something else, I don't think its a big enough issue to worry about trying to force upon players in design

 

[Tony Vargas]

I dislike the 2 resource pools as well. I think you have to make options tactically interesting if you want to eliminate spam. Then again most classes "spam" the same stuff over and over. So while I agree with him I would rather see something else, I don't think its a big enough issue to worry about trying to force upon players in design

So there was no special point to it? OK...

only because he was trying to copy the eldrich knight power level, with cantrip and spells. Not any story reason.
Though he did mention not wanting to spam the same maneuvers.
IMO, Base warlord should be at-will features only (or psudo-at-will, like letting people spend hit dice, or triggering on a condition, like initiative). With the daily resources in the sub-class.

One idea I was toying with was the Warlord getting a few at-will maneuvers (comparable in number/power to cantrips, sure), that could be amped up with a use from the daily pool, like the BM does with CS dice. Gambits &c would require use of the resource.

I also like the idea of some gambits allowing the allies to expend a resource - CS die, HD, Inspiration - to get a benefit, either on top of or instead of whatever the Warlord's resource gives. It drives home that a lot of what the warlord is enabling is really, ultimately coming from the allies, themselves.

This way, you can have a "simple" warlord, like the champion, and knocks all enemies prone when they roll a 1, or something similar.
It's also why I moved the zone idea into a sub-class for my homebrew warlord.

I think the PDK works for a 'simple warlord,' already.
Not that there's any indication anyone wants such a thing.

 

[mellored]

If base warlord is only at will features then healing or attack granting likely won't be available to him in the base class?

Sure you can, if the heal uses on HD, and the attack is on the allies turn. For instance....
Level 1:
First Aid: as an action, you can let a creature spend a hit die. If they are prone, you can stand them up.
Tactician's Help: When you take the help action to help with an attack, that ally can make one additional attack instead of gaining advantage. When you help with a skill (some other small bonus).

The out-of turn attacks (force an enemy to provoke an OA's), and non-HD healing need to be limited. But that can be in the sub-class.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure you can, if the heal uses on HD, and the attack is on the allies turn. For instance....
Level 1:
First Aid: as an action, you can let a creature spend a hit die. If they are prone, you can stand them up.
Tactician's Help: When you take the help action to help with an attack, that ally can make one additional attack instead of gaining advantage. When you help with a skill (some other small bonus).

The out-of turn attacks (force an enemy to provoke an OA's), and non-HD healing need to be limited. But that can be in the sub-class.

1. Hit dice healing has too many issues to list but I'll make a small list of some of them:
a. In the early levels you can heal more than the cleric
b. The power balancing of such an ability will be impossible. From one perspective it's not adding any daily resources to the party so the parties power isn't increasing. From another perspective it's allowing as much healing in a narrow timeframe as a cleric that spends all his slots on healing. The cleric afterwards is spent. The warlord afterwards would still be just as effective in combat. How do you balance a class that can heal as much as a cleric out of combat but no resources are removed from the class for doing so? (Hint: it's impossible to do so)

The tacticians help ability is better but still looks to be very hard for a warlord to scale up with such an ability. Does he always grant 1 attack? Does he eventually grant 2? If that ability doesn't become stronger or get empowered by some other feature then you've either made a worthless ability after level 5 or a worthless class after then.

 

[Tony Vargas]

From one perspective it's not adding any daily resources to the party so the parties power isn't increasing.

That's the important perspective, I think. 5e combats aren't balanced around characters getting knocked down to 0 every fight, healing's more of an emergency thing, but 5e days are balanced around the party handling up to 6-8 encounters, so whether you heal in or out of combat isn't that critically important, as long as you /can/ heal in combat, now and then.

From another perspective it's allowing as much healing in a narrow timeframe as a cleric that spends all his slots on healing. The cleric afterwards is spent.

Instead, the allies' HD are spent, also a serious issue. Blowing HD to heal in combat is 'better' than spending HD in one sense, but it adds nothing to the day's healing capacity, so the party is less likely to hit the magic number of encounters/day.

Maybe the Warlord should trigger HD in combat, but perform between-combat healing or before-combat temp hp inspiration? So the total hps/day can be maintained?
IDK, may be over-analyzing it profoundly, a party could have only one Cleric or other support type, or half the party could be able to heal, that's a lot of variance, the balance can't be all that delicate...

The tacticians help ability is better but still looks to be very hard for a warlord to scale up with such an ability. Does he always grant 1 attack? Does he eventually grant 2? If that ability doesn't become stronger or get empowered by some other feature then you've either made a worthless ability after level 5 or a worthless class after then.

The fighter going back to true multi-attacking after languishing with 4e exploits and 3.x iterative attacks for so long is hard to complain about, fighters get tremendous DPR because multi-attacking is so potent and acts as a multiplier on every little damage bonus you can scrape together. But it does make the game less consistent and harder to add anything to because you have classes working so very differently. It's just part of the challenge of designing for 5e, but, by the same token, there's nothing stopping a design from tackling all that. No line to have to color within. ...