Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

[CapnZapp]

I like the feat idea and I agree the distinction is meaningful. So most feats have 2-3 things in them. Do you have some proposed text?

No final text as of yet. The idea I used in my suggestion was to make it a half feat, granting Intelligence as well.

But I'm open to making it just the once-per-turn instead of once-per-round thing. That way, it would presumably only interest minmaxers that have set their eyes on a reliable way to do out-of-turn or reaction sneaks.

Since this would net a level 7 rogue a second 7d6 sneak attack it could be considered powerful enough. Hopefully the player seeking something straight-forward is content with getting the first helping of 7d6 simply by delivering a "regular" successful sneak attack though. That's the balance dilemma.

 

[Mistwell]

No final text as of yet. The idea I used in my suggestion was to make it a half feat, granting Intelligence as well.

But I'm open to making it just the once-per-turn instead of once-per-round thing. That way, it would presumably only interest minmaxers that have set their eyes on a reliable way to do out-of-turn or reaction sneaks.

Since this would net a level 7 rogue a second 7d6 sneak attack it could be considered powerful enough. Hopefully the player seeking something straight-forward is content with getting the first helping of 7d6 simply by delivering a "regular" successful sneak attack though. That's the balance dilemma.

Hmm, I will take a stab at one:

Vital Expertise

You are highly skilled in the anatomy of creatures, able to heal or harm a vulnerable organ or crucial portion of anatomy with a moments thought. You gain the following abilities:

1) You become trained in Wisdom (Medicine). If you are already trained in Wisdom (Medicine), you gain expertise in it.
2) If you are able to sneak attack, you may sneak attack as many times per turn as you are able to, rather than just once per turn.
3) You may use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check to revive an adjacent unconscious ally. The DC for this check is 10+1 for each round the ally has been unconscious. If you succeed, the ally is revived as if they had rolled a natural 20 on their death saving throw.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Hmm, I will take a stab at one:

I see what you did there.

(Which I guess means you don't get the bonus dice against me....)

 

[Satyrn]

Danggit.

I was the first one to respond to this thread, and I just realized that I squandered the opportunity something fierce. I should've made a joke about not even knowing that a miserly begrudging rogue subclass existed.

Is it called a Scrooge?

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't think the rogue needs any work at all.

However, if you are going to create a feat that increases Sneak Attack damage I think it's too narrow and specific to just make it a "Sneak Attack Feat".

I'd do something like "...if you have multiple attacks, you can both take the Attack action on your turn, and Hold Action to attack again on somebody else's turn as a reaction, dividing your attacks as you see fit." Tricky wording, but something to that effect.

 

[CapnZapp]

Excellent stuff!

2) If you are able to sneak attack, you may sneak attack as many times per turn as you are able to, rather than just once per turn.

You mean round. (At least I hope you do)

The feat isn't supposed to drive all rogues to use two-weapon fighting (including its cousin, crossbow expert), only to re-enable what you can do today: sneak attack on different turns (using your reaction, most commonly).

Writing this, the section becomes:

2) If you have the sneak attack feature, you may sneak attack once per turn, rather than once per round.

If you go from once a round to "once per attack" I fear the feat becomes too good ("feat tax good") and that you will be compelled to maximize your number of attacks.

Your idea about Medicine is straight up better than mine.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well, he could be looking for a house rule suggestion. Of course, if that were his purpose, you'd think he'd mentioned in clear words....like saying he's looking for advice on a house rule.

Nah, that's not it... that was the last thread Capn made, asking about canon sources for magic items that could generate additional Sneak Attacks for his player. And he already got a crapton of suggestions over in that thread.

Or he could just be looking for moral support for a rant, to experience the catharsis of similarly tormented souls over this issue?

This one sounds more like it.

 

[Pauln6]

Hmm, I will take a stab at one:

Vital Expertise

You are highly skilled in the anatomy of creatures, able to heal or harm a vulnerable organ or crucial portion of anatomy with a moments thought. You gain the following abilities:

1) You become trained in Wisdom (Medicine). If you are already trained in Wisdom (Medicine), you gain expertise in it.
2) If you are able to sneak attack, you may sneak attack as many times per turn as you are able to, rather than just once per turn.
3) You may use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check to revive an adjacent unconscious ally. The DC for this check is 10+1 for each round the ally has been unconscious. If you succeed, the ally is revived as if they had rolled a natural 20 on their death saving throw.

Rogues can already use sneak attack once per turn. Isn't this is just a feat for dual wielding rogues or fighter/Ranger/paladin /pact blade/blade singer multiclass builds? Plus a thief at 17th level could be getting 5 sneak attacks in a round, or 6 with 2 levels of fighter on top. If it's a feat to improve the class overall, it favours niche builds quite strongly.

A feat that increases the size of the sneak dice, extra sneak dice (following cantrip progression), a daily pool of backstabbing dice, or a magic item to increase crit range would all seem to be more generally applicable. I suppose you could add your intelligence bonus to sneak damage with the feat but that seems like a small overall bonus.

 

[Ancalagon]

This thread has got nearly two hundred responses, and I have been quoted dozens of times.

So apologies in advance - I cannot reply to each one individually.

If you have provided genuine feedback on my suggestions back in post #4, feel free to "mention" me like so: [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] and I shall reply.

Thx

Very well [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]

In post 122, I gave feedback on your suggestions. Furthermore, in post 182 I pointed out a serious rule error regarding monks you have apparently been doing in your game.

Ancalagon

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The design of the 5E Rogue class is not generous.

In games without feats, and where every adventure day is 8 encounters long, then maybe, just maybe, can the Rogue hold his own in the combat department.

But in games with feats the fighter get upwards of 35 or more damage a round, along with a host of other tricks. That's 10d6! There is no feat to meaningfully increase sneak attack damage.

And in games where the Sorcerer can cast a Fireball together with two Firebolts each combat (for something like 8d6+3d10+3d10+10 damage) the Rogue's so-called "alpha strike" looks just sad.

But the design is not only too stingy with damage. It is poor and counter-intuitive. There is no burst/nova capability. Correct play requires absolute system mastery, to gain two sneak attacks in as many rounds as humanly possible. The Assassinate ability is just mean to the Rogue player, enclosed in so many requirements it basically never happens in games where the party consensus is that solo raids are boring for the rest of the players; much more fun if everybody joins in to the combat simultaneously!

Sure the Rogue has its uses outside of combat, but let's be honest - D&D is a combat-heavy game, and there needs to be a straightforward way to build a Rogue that is competitive in combat.

Am I suddenly playing a stupid MMO where DPS is all that matters?

DnD is or isnt as combat heavy as you want it to be. You want to play a game where everything is about DPS then go play a video game and do not complain about DnD not being 24/7 about combat and combat optimization.