D&D 5E Concentration: combining two effects

[TheSword]

I would rather just 'fix' the poorly designed spells (as much as I love 5e, there are some of those). For instance, make witchbolt something that a reasonably min/max oriented player would choose to cast in more than any but the most niche situations. Another way would be to perhaps remove the concentration requirement if cast at a high enough level--Improved Invisibility cast in an 8th level slot does not require concentration, though would admittedly do very little for poor spells at the level they reside in.

I don’t see the problem with Witchbolt. it’s a boosted version of a damaging cantrip that once you hit you don’t need to roll to hit any more. It’s particularly good for low level wizards that might struggle to hit, but they can use inspiration/bardic inspiration/help/entangle etc. to be relatively sure on one attack. Plus it’s clearly inspired by Palpatine’s force lightning!

@CapnZapp can you give specifics of what the clear spells that require the concentration limitation dropping? I appreciate as you say there will always be debate over the middleground, but what are the ‘no brainers’ to you?

[edit: autocorrect took the discussion into a political place i didn’t want to go. Damn iPhone!]

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm sorry, but if you can't even admit Witchbolt is borked, I'm afraid we have no common ground.

This thread simply isn't for you, I guess. Good luck with your gaming.

 

[TheSword]

I'm sorry, but if you can't even admit Witchbolt is borked, I'm afraid we have no common ground.

This thread simply isn't for you, I guess. Good luck with your gaming.

Ha ha, well that’s one way to have a discussion. Maybe you just haven’t presented a good enough case. It sounds to me like you’re a BMW driver that wants all cars to have BMW engines. With hundreds of spells it’s a fools errand to expect them all to have the same power.

You have to accept that most spells that deal ongoing damage or that have massive debilitating effects (like hold person) are going to have concentration, particularly at low level. Same with vampiric touch etc. For witchbolt if you can’t see that automatically hitting for 1d12 damage is acceptable then I don’t know what to say.

Like I said, I have no problem with your desire to improve spellcasters on the basis that this isn’t fixing something that’s broken but instead adding power. Surely you can see that being able to deal ongoing damage with Vampric touch while simultaneously controlling someone with crown of madness is powerful.

[edit: isn’t fixing something broken]

 

[CapnZapp]

With hundreds of spells it’s a fools errand to expect them all to have the same power.

I am not expecting it. I am trying to achieve it, in this case by suggesting a houserule.

What I won't do is justifying myself. Either you accept the premise of the thread, or I don't have anything to discuss with you. Simple as that. This does not mean I am trying to deny you your opinion. That you disagree has been noted. That does not mean I have to "present a good enough case" to you. Your participation is not necessary to me - I'm totally okay with you not using the houserules suggested herein.

Have a good day

 

[TheSword]

Well that’s me told. Good luck with that then.

My gut feeling is that you’re being a bit defensive but as with all things in a home game you can do whatever you like.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well that’s me told. Good luck with that then.

My gut feeling is that you’re being a bit defensive but as with all things in a home game you can do whatever you like.

Nota bene: I meant to give you an XP. I misclicked and gave you a laugh point, that the app won't let me take away. Since it would likely have been misconstrued I am making this post: I am not laughing at you.

Have a nice day, Sword.

 

[Gadget]

I don’t see the problem with Witchbolt. it’s a boosted version of a damaging cantrip that once you hit you don’t need to roll to hit any more. It’s particularly good for low level wizards that might struggle to hit, but they can use inspiration/bardic inspiration/help/entangle etc. to be relatively sure on one attack. Plus it’s clearly inspired by Palpatine’s force lightning!

Sorry, but if you can't see how Witchbolt is borked, there's no help for you. Concentration, piddly damage, doesn't scale well, requires your action for the entire time you use it, limited range, fairly easy for a victim to end the effect, depending on the circumstances, doesn't really hinder the victim in any way (other than the hit point reduction, at least Shocking grasp takes away the targets reaction). In short, yes, it is a (poor) implementation of Palpatine's force lightning, but usually too situational and too high a cost to be of benefit. You don't want to waste it on a mook, and you are probably better off just using a damaging cantrip (which also benefits from inspiration, etc). Sure it can miss, but so can Witch Bolt, and you're not out a spell slot or committing your next X rounds of actions to doing the same thing. There may be some situation where it is the 'perfect spell', but those tend to be niche, it's a great spell to torture a helpless victim when you have nothing better to do with your action.

 

[Dausuul]

I don’t see the problem with Witchbolt. it’s a boosted version of a damaging cantrip that once you hit you don’t need to roll to hit any more. It’s particularly good for low level wizards that might struggle to hit, but they can use inspiration/bardic inspiration/help/entangle etc. to be relatively sure on one attack. Plus it’s clearly inspired by Palpatine’s force lightning!

Witch bolt suffers from a lot of problems.

• At levels 1-4, it is usable... ish... but severely mediocre. Even if you're able to sustain the effect throughout combat, it's outperformed by magic missile. (Remember, the up-front damage of magic missile is supplemented by cantrips on subsequent rounds, while witch bolt costs your action as long as you keep it up.)
• You have to maintain concentration and expend your action every round, costing you the opportunity to cast other leveled spells.
• The target can break the effect of witch bolt by moving more than 30 feet away from you, and the spell does nothing to impede movement.
• Its initial range is only 30 feet. Magic missile is 120.
• It deals lightning damage, which is a moderately-resisted type. Magic missile deals force, which is almost entirely unresisted.
• The upcasting potential is pathetic.
• And all that is just at levels 1-4. As soon as you hit level 5, witch bolt goes from "severely mediocre" to "utterly worthless." Never mind magic missile, you do more damage just by casting fire bolt every round. It's a level 1 spell that's outperformed by cantrips. 'Nuff said.

It's too bad, because I really want to like witch bolt. I'd love to play a PC who specialized in Force lightning. I'd be willing to take a mild hit to effectiveness for it. But witch bolt goes way beyond "mild hit to effectiveness" and deep into "self-sabotage."

 

[Gadget]

Guides in general are there to optimize wizards for adventuring and when there are hundreds of spells to choose from some are going to be more useful than others. The red and brown listings mean Treantmonk wouldn’t select them for one of his god wizards (or for any wizard in a smaller number of cases) but the reality is that some of these spells have their uses.

You seem to fixating on Treantmonk. I don't really agree with many of his choices and reasoning, and was careful in my post to not reference him, other than the generally agreed upon 'red' & 'brown' color coding.

Let’s take for instance the Arcane Lock spell. It’s 1 action to cast, has 25gp material component and is a 2nd level abjuration. It is inspired I would imagine by the LOTR chapter in Moria where Gandalf seals one of the doors to the orcs so they can’t pass through. It buys them a little time and then the Balrog brushes aside the abjuration slowing the orcs through.

Arcane lock is kind of a world building spell with some adventuring uses, as you point out. I don't agree with Treantmonk in this case, though I realize he is speaking from an adventuring super control wizard standpoint. I don't really have a problem with Illusory Script either (Well, I think the duration could be a bit longer, as 10 days may not be enough time to ensure a missive reaches its destination in a medieval-ish world). Likewise with Arcane Lock (though I think maybe it could be a ritual, it might be exciting to see if you can old off the orcs long enough for Gandalf to seal the door). These spells are not what I call 'trap' spells. They, more or less, do what they say on the tin in a reasonable manner. No one is going to go off into the blue thinking that Illusory Script is going to 'win the day' in a combat encounter.

Some of the elemental spells released in Princes of the Apocalypse may have been designed for the elemental cults, but they were re-published in Xanthar's Guide, and should absolutely cut the mustard as PC spells.

These are not cars without breaks. They’re cars that people don’t like.

You seem to have missed the point. We can and should discuss and debate about which particular spells are 'red/brown'. My argument is that once such is agreed upon (you will never have universal agreement), it is a good idea to fix or improve such spells. To expand the analogy even further, everyone has different likes for cars, but you seem to be saying that it is impossible to have a bad car, which is an argument I fundamentally reject out hand.

 

[Tony Vargas]

With several additional years of play experience...:

There are definitely several spells that go by the wayside simply because you'd rather use your Concentration slot for something better. There are lots of spells that would become interesting if you removed Concentration.

I see the issue. The way the casting sub-systems of 5e work, there will always be some spells that are better than others and 'crowd out' alternatives, making casters & the game 'samey,' to a degree. It's not the fault of spells not being perfectly designed - it's impossible to so perfectly balance spells that in every situation, each spell is exactly as attractive, and very hard to balance them even well enough that a few obvious best spells don't bubble to the top across many situations - rather, it was giving everyone spontaneous casting and lots of slots that has made some spells ]de rigueur and others passé, when you're a spontaneous caster you cast the best spell you have for the situation, every time. It doesn't matter if it's crowding out second-best spells because they both have concentration, or because you're casting the best spell every round. It's the uber-flexibility of 5e neo-Vancian that makes it hard for a second-rate spell to get it's moment in the sun.

No amount of fine-tuning of also-ran spells will ever quite fix that. Neither will bringing back layered buffs by backing off on concentration, the one remaining non-trivial limitation on 5e casting.

Bringing back Vancian casting might help, a little: casters will have to choose between spamming the generally best spell, and having some situationally best spells on tap. Still not great, certainly, but not as lame. If you really want casters to take a tour of the spell list every day, limit each spell to being cast 1/day, no matter how many slots you have... so like Vancian, but no memorizing the same spell twice!