Missing Rules

[Reynard]

This comes up with some frequency in my games. The Str 8 to 10 characters always slow down the party!

Which suggests there is something missing from the rules in light of the statement "Your Athletics (strength) [applies when] You try to jump an unusually long distance" but no additional information is provided. I get that it is up to the GM, but is 5' feet hard? Easy? Impossible? Who knows?

 

[Maxperson]

So what DC would you assign to that roll?

There's no one answer to that. As [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] points out, it works really well for circumstances in the environment. Maybe there's a boulder near the chasm and with an athletics roll the PC jumps onto the boulder and pushes off of that for some extra height and distance. Maybe there's mud at the edge that makes it hard to jump, but athletics reduces or eliminates the penalty. The DCs will depend on what is being attempted and what the environment is, and that's something only the DM can decide with an on the spot ruling. An general rule will not fit well.

 

[iserith]

Which suggests there is something missing from the rules in light of the statement "Your Athletics (strength) [applies when] You try to jump an unusually long distance" but no additional information is provided. I get that it is up to the GM, but is 5' feet hard? Easy? Impossible? Who knows?

Why does that suggest anything is missing from the rules? As I mentioned upthread, "in some circumstances" the DM might allow a character to jump higher than it normally can. (Notice this doesn't apply to long jumps, just high jumps). And "in some circumstances" suggests there's something going on in the environment or something different about the PC's approach to the goal of jumping that (1) possibly allows him or her to jump higher and (2) has an uncertain outcome and (3) has a meaningful consequence of failure. A PC can't just say "I try to jump higher than usual" and expect or demand to make a check. That's a goal without an approach and if the approach is to jump as normal, then the attempt to jump higher simply fails, no roll.

 

[Reynard]

It isn't the module that is the problem (if it is indeed a problem for one, and it is obviously not one for many posters in this thread), it is the incomplete rules regarding the action of jumping. "You can running long jump a number of feet equal to your strength. You MIGHT be able to jump farther with an Athletics check, but we won't tell you how."

"Just pick a difficulty and go" is a perfectly viable solution to the problem, but just because you have a solution does not mean there is not in fact a problem.

 

[Reynard]

There's no one answer to that. As [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] points out, it works really well for circumstances in the environment. Maybe there's a boulder near the chasm and with an athletics roll the PC jumps onto the boulder and pushes off of that for some extra height and distance. Maybe there's mud at the edge that makes it hard to jump, but athletics reduces or eliminates the penalty. The DCs will depend on what is being attempted and what the environment is, and that's something only the DM can decide with an on the spot ruling. An general rule will not fit well.

What DC would you apply to jumping 5 feet beyond your strength score?

 

[Maxperson]

Which suggests there is something missing from the rules in light of the statement "Your Athletics (strength) [applies when] You try to jump an unusually long distance" but no additional information is provided. I get that it is up to the GM, but is 5' feet hard? Easy? Impossible? Who knows?

The game knows and tells you, so you know too. 5 feet is automatic if your strength is 5 or higher, and an auto fail if 4 or lower. The jumping rules tell you straight out that you go your strength in distance. Period. No rolling at all unless you want to somehow go an unusually long distance. Below is the quoted jumping rule showing no roll is made to determine how far you go.

"When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement."

 

[Reynard]

Why does that suggest anything is missing from the rules? As I mentioned upthread, "in some circumstances" the DM might allow a character to jump higher than it normally can. (Notice this doesn't apply to long jumps, just high jumps). And "in some circumstances" suggests there's something going on in the environment or something different about the PC's approach to the goal of jumping that (1) possibly allows him or her to jump higher and (2) has an uncertain outcome and (3) has a meaningful consequence of failure. A PC can't just say "I try to jump higher than usual" and expect or demand to make a check. That's a goal without an approach and if the approach is to jump as normal, then the attempt to jump higher simply fails, no roll.

I am not sure what you mean with the inclusion of "in some circumstances." It is pretty plain in the Strength entry in the PHB that one of the things you can do with Athletics is "jump an unusually long distance." That is a statement of the rules. What I am wondering is why there are no benchmarks for that action.

 

[Reynard]

The game knows and tells you, so you know too. 5 feet is automatic if your strength is 5 or higher, and an auto fail if 4 or lower. The jumping rules tell you straight out that you go your strength in distance. Period. No rolling at all unless you want to somehow go an unusually long distance. Below is the quoted jumping rule showing no roll is made to determine how far you go.

"When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement."

You did not quote the part where I said 5 feet farther than your strength would allow. That is the context of my question. What difficulty does an additional 5 feet of jumping distance represent in play?

 

[Caliban]

I am not sure what you mean with the inclusion of "in some circumstances." It is pretty plain in the Strength entry in the PHB that one of the things you can do with Athletics is "jump an unusually long distance." That is a statement of the rules. What I am wondering is why there are no benchmarks for that action.

Because it is up to the DM, based on their sense of the situation and environmental conditions. Welcome to 5e.

 

[Oofta]

It isn't the module that is the problem (if it is indeed a problem for one, and it is obviously not one for many posters in this thread), it is the incomplete rules regarding the action of jumping. "You can running long jump a number of feet equal to your strength. You MIGHT be able to jump farther with an Athletics check, but we won't tell you how."

"Just pick a difficulty and go" is a perfectly viable solution to the problem, but just because you have a solution does not mean there is not in fact a problem.

Or maybe you just don't accept the solution which is "think about how hard you think it should be and assign a DC as appropriate".

There was a podcast a while back talking about a related issue (stealth) and they apparently had a detailed list of rules. Then they realized no set of rules could possibly be comprehensive and scaled way back. This is similar.

There is no perfect solution or style that will fit every campaign or DM style. If they had, there would just be questions like "what if there's a really strong head-wind?" or something else. The game rules can only do so much. That's not perfect, but the alternatives aren't really much better and are frequently worse.