Which is why we're on page 30 something where you are arguing that the distinction is important?
Anyway, I'm going back to lurking.
Missing Rules
Which is why we're on page 30 something where you are arguing that the distinction is important?
Anyway, I'm going back to lurking.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
That I think the distinction important to understanding some finer points doesn't make it a problem. I would also say that the number of pages or posts is irrelevant.
Good call.
Good way to make friends and influence people there.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I would assume based on what you've said so far in this thread that you play with people who are used to treating ability checks as tools at the players' disposal, so it makes sense that they wouldn't consider the distinction between ability checks and solutions important.
Those of us who treat ability checks as tool the DM uses to resolve uncertainty in the outcomes of actions the players describe do consider the distinction important. "I make a (whatever) check" is not an action in that paradigm. It's a way of resolving an action, applied at the DM's discretion.
The distinction, whether important in your preferred play style or not, isn't a problem. It's just a distinction.
Also a distinction I don't see anyone making. Someone wants to open a gate they can tell me they want to use an athletics check or say "I try to lift it with brute force". Same diff. Also something I don't see anyone I've ever played with making the distinction.
I think this is an ungenerous reading of pemerton and my position. What we’re saying is those distances are what can be jumped with certainty, i.e. no check required. Not that no effort is required, simply that the character is guaranteed to make it (under normal circumstances). With that out of the way we’re now contemplating whether it is possible for a character to jump further than they normally can and, of course, in extraordinary circumstances people can. The player has recognized the extraordinary circumstances and says their character is going to attempt something more. That is perfectly reasonable, the character is heroically trying to push themselves to escape a tight spot, and the response is “sad trombone” the character automatically fails and falls.
Seems awfully rigid and frankly unrealistic.
edited for amazingly bad autocorrect fails!
Just a point I would like people to consider.
A STR 15 character can jump from 1 to 15 feet, no fail, over and over, all day long, 365 days a year, no chance of failure*. No roll needed.
Nothing says that the upper limit is a strain, or their best effort. It just says they can, without fail, jump that far.
I am not in the debate about declaring actions or goals or effect. That's table preference.
So how do we get the "I'm being chased by zombies, so I'm going to risk it" movie trope scenario? Because it should be a risk, and if the distance is too far, based on the character's estimate...well then they would be foolish indeed to try.
Cause so far, I see no motivation for risking a jump, and that would seem to take away something that should be in the game.*
* barring scenario based complications of course.
A STR 15 character can jump from 1 to 15 feet, no fail, over and over, all day long, 365 days a year, no chance of failure*. No roll needed.
Nothing says that the upper limit is a strain, or their best effort. It just says they can, without fail, jump that far.
I am not in the debate about declaring actions or goals or effect. That's table preference.
So how do we get the "I'm being chased by zombies, so I'm going to risk it" movie trope scenario? Because it should be a risk, and if the distance is too far, based on the character's estimate...well then they would be foolish indeed to try.
Cause so far, I see no motivation for risking a jump, and that would seem to take away something that should be in the game.*
* barring scenario based complications of course.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
I would say it's also reasonable to conclude that an approach is needed to achieve a goal of jumping an unusually long distance which is something other than the approach used to jump normally. And that if such an approach is not viable in the present situation, then it's time for that player (and character) to think fast and come up with something else. We're talking about poor Bob as if jumping is his only option and that doesn't seem all that likely a scenario in my experience. Climb down the chasm or pit wall - I've never heard of a zombie that climbs.
What we're disagreeing on appears to be the viability of "I try harder than usual" or "adrenaline and stuff" as approaches and I think even [MENTION=6779196]Charlaquin[/MENTION] is okay with the latter given a cost. I'm not. So my players may have to work a little harder to save Bob. No big deal. Why am I not okay with that approach? It doesn't actually matter. DMs are just going to rule differently on matters of what is or isn't an uncertain outcome and/or a meaningful consequence of failure. That's okay.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Give a viable approach to achieving the goal of jumping an unusually long distance. Maybe you succeed outright, maybe you fail outright, maybe you roll for it. Same as anything else.
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