Mike Mearls: so here’s the first part of my two-weapon fighting house rule

[5ekyu]

I don't remember the exact numbers, but without feats on either side (in the above the TWF has Dual Wielder), the GWF pulls ahead at the start, slips a bit at level 4, regains it at level 5, slips again at 6, then pulls ahead (and stays there) at levels 11+.

By 11th level of play, is it your experience that the base type of weapon dice are the major element of the damage output as opposed to say higher modifiers and tag-along effects from class abilities, items, buffs, suites etc?

Cuz, TBH in most every version of D&D I have played from 1E to 5E (and really, most any RPG) the basic difference in weapon damage has rarely remained critical to any real extent beyond the "first tier" or even noticable really at higher tiers than the second.

I mean, if you even add on something as simple as the Warlock Hex adding an extra dice to every hit, the math between x greataxe swings and x+1 shortsword swings changes, right? Sneak attack may be one of the more striking examples early on - where the extra attack helps cover your odds of an initial miss costing you the sneak dice.

In my experience, the characters working two-weapons do so as part of an entire scheme - including class abilities - that help the extra swing and finesse elements pay-off. Especially by tier-3 but really at lower tiers too, that "dice size envy" is not really a problem in actual play as much as it seems in some folk's white rooms of Excel.

Your experience may vary.

But again, if this is a problem caused or exacerbated by feats specifically, adding new feats or tweaking existing ones seems simpler to fix.

 

[Mistwell]

These discussions should really take place assuming no feats. It's usually the feats that mess things up, and they do remain an optional rule.

 

[flametitan]

These discussions should really take place assuming no feats. It's usually the feats that mess things up, and they do remain an optional rule.

Without feats, it's slightly in favour of GWF still, though it's not as wide a gap. With some off the cuff math (i.e. not accounting for crits or whiffs, just multiplying the average of all dice by a 65% chance of hitting) it's about 25.9935 versus a 22.1 average at level 11. That said, TWF gets better use of crit fishing features, features that trigger on multiple hits (like hunter's mark and rage) or gives more chances to land large hits (like smite and sneak attack) which can change which one a character might use. Oh, and just having more attacks means it's not as likely to whiff entirely, thus more turns feeling like you're doing something.

With GWM and SS, damage is massively skewed in favour of ranged and two weapon fighting, while PAM and XBE take away twf's bonus attack advantage.

 

[Yunru]

By 11th level of play, is it your experience that the base type of weapon dice are the major element of the damage output as opposed to say higher modifiers and tag-along effects from class abilities, items, buffs, suites etc?

For a Fighter? Yes. For others... not really.

Of course, TWF has a problem that there are two different feats and a weapon that give them same effect without taking up a fighting style (Polearm Master, Crossbow Master, Double-Bladed Scimitar).

 

[5ekyu]

For a Fighter? Yes. For others... not really.

Of course, TWF has a problem that there are two different feats and a weapon that give them same effect without taking up a fighting style (Polearm Master, Crossbow Master, Double-Bladed Scimitar).

I submit - if ONE CLASS has a TWF dice problem, then the reasonable approach would be to...

1 Ask "is it actually a problem if TWF isnt a top choice for a class - of it has other options and other classes have TWF as good option?

2 Ask if that should be addressed at the class level and not the base TWF level?

And again, if the problem is imbalanced feats, fix the feats.

How hard would it be if (based on a belief that the feats that give bonus attacks to non-twf are the problem) change the dual-wielding feat to add in extra attack as well - since apparently it's not enough for you as it stands now? Let it add a second extra attack on the bonus action -ala monk.

If the goal of the TWF change is to "fix fighter sinle-class based dpr" let's nail that down at the start and we can layer in on making fixes thst only hit that.

 

[Inchoroi]

The only problem I've experienced with two weapon fighting is when compared to another character using the feat Great Weapon Master to get the +10; the penalty to hit doesn't really have that much of an effect (your mileage may vary, but this is my experience over the course of 4 campaigns, 2 of which had GWM and 3 of which had a two-weapon fighter). I removed GWM (and Sharpshooter, but that's neither here nor there) and there hasn't been an issue with two weapon fighting since then.

I think Mearls is tinkering with the wrong thing...

 

[Pauln6]

Would giving a second off-hand attack as part of the attack action when a fighter hits three attacks become a solution? So action surge becomes 6 main attacks plus two off-hand attacks plus one bonus action off-hand attack.

 

[Pauln6]

The only problem I've experienced with two weapon fighting is when compared to another character using the feat Great Weapon Master to get the +10; the penalty to hit doesn't really have that much of an effect (your mileage may vary, but this is my experience over the course of 4 campaigns, 2 of which had GWM and 3 of which had a two-weapon fighter). I removed GWM (and Sharpshooter, but that's neither here nor there) and there hasn't been an issue with two weapon fighting since then.

I think Mearls is tinkering with the wrong thing...

I've seen some homebrew to those feats that removes the +/- stuff but it goes alongside some other tweaks to clarify features and feats.

 

[Inchoroi]

I've seen some homebrew to those feats that removes the +/- stuff but it goes alongside some other tweaks to clarify features and feats.

I've actually got homebrew versions for both, but to date, no one's ever taken them! In general, I've always viewed any mechanic as, "If literally every character would want to take it, it's probably too good." The only exception being Tough, which my players would scream bloody murder should I ban it (I have a fairly lethal DM style).

 

[bedir than]

For a Fighter? Yes. For others... not really.

Of course, TWF has a problem that there are two different feats and a weapon that give them same effect without taking up a fighting style (Polearm Master, Crossbow Master, Double-Bladed Scimitar).

What book is Double-Bladed Scimitar in?