D&D 5E How many classess/subclasses is too much?

[Zardnaar]

Bladesinger has always been a Wizard, so it makes sense as a Wizard.

The Artificer is the Arcane half caster, for example the Battlesmith.

It was also a fighter.

 

[Coroc]

Arcane fighter: take Eldritch knight
fighting wizard: take some martial feats and a martial background

Arcane rogue : Arcane trickster
More on the caster side: Take any wizard preferable elf so you get the stealth, give him some dex and take the criminal background

5e makes it so easy to even avoid mc if you want to, the tools are there you just got to use them. No need to invent a subclass for everything not visible outright. That is where feats and even background can really shine.

Edit: Bladesinger: That cannot be done by any bard??? I did not analyse bards in depth yet, because they did not come up in my group and I myself did not want to play one yet but really, it should be possible to portray a bladesinger with one of the bardcolleges is it not?

 

[Zardnaar]

Arcane fighter: take Eldritch knight
fighting wizard: take some martial feats and a martial background

Arcane rogue : Arcane trickster
More on the caster side: Take any wizard preferable elf so you get the stealth, give him some dex and take the criminal background

5e makes it so easy to even avoid mc if you want to, the tools are there you just got to use them. No need to invent a subclass for everything not visible outright. That is where feats and even background can really shine.

Edit: Bladesinger: That cannot be done by any bard??? I did not analyse bards in depth yet, because they did not come up in my group and I myself did not want to play one yet but really, it should be possible to portray a bladesinger with one of the bardcolleges is it not?

Not well due to MAD. Unless you use rolled stats and roll high.

 

[Coroc]

Not well due to MAD. Unless you use rolled stats and roll high.

I never said that this will create power builds, I was tempted to add the sentence: "at least if you main goal is roleplay founded on a good technical model of the capabilities of your character"
wel,l here you are.

 

[Zardnaar]

I never said that this will create power builds, I was tempted to add the sentence: "at least if you main goal is roleplay founded on a good technical model of the capabilities of your character"
wel,l here you are.

It's not a power build just I don't suck. If you want a power build play a different bard or class.

There's been powercreep with things like hexblade, bladesinger and even SCAG cantrips because there's a variety of problems with the phb gishes (valor bard, ek, bladelock). A few clerics are in the same boat.

 

[Undrave]

I don't believe that anymore. Or at least I don't believe WotC designers are both capable and willing. Even the otherwise grandiose concept of "True Names" magic ended up as basically granting the usual 3 things: bonus damage, (dis)advantage on something, and healing or temporary HP. Where is the mechanical expansion?

They didn't leave enough levers to pull in their quest for streamlining...

The BIG problem is todays everything goes mentality as in everything HAS TO GO.
That's why I voted there are to many already.

Create as many subclasses as you like but within context. Ok for official FR products it does not matter much because FR is the new Eberron already

But for other campaigns I just do not want the would be player of an oath of furuncle on the bum paladin complaining, why I would not allow his special subclass in or could not fit it in.
People today think it cannot be diverse enough, but they do not see the forest because of to many trees.

To much choice is not helpful in any way, especially because even with the standard PHB you got myriad of options to customize characters using backgrounds feats and mc if it need be to portray anything you like.

Why does a bola swinging fighter need a bola swinger subclass?

Why do we need a parcours expert class for roof jumping rogue?

With only so many spells available why do we need additional mage subclasses?

I get it for some it seems to be fun and some feel their character concept is so special that it should get a dedicated class, but I see no advantages in that.

Rather create subclasses fitting for a campaign e.g. FR purple dragon knight that is ok for me. Unless said purple dragon knight turns up in my dragonlance/eberron/greyhawk campaign.

Why do you hate fun?

Joking aside, I still don't get how a subclass could give you trouble thematically. Most of them are pretty in line with the rest of the class and don't need anything huge to justify them. At all.

Also the PHB has plenty of jankiness. Backgrounds barely mean anything unless your DM is really into them, Feats are too few so if they impact a build it's almost jarring... for the Fighter a lot of these are basically class feature the Fighter was forced to share with the whole class (Seriously, if Polearm Master, Heavy Armor Mastery, Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter had been lv 6 'Advanced Fighting Style' nobody would have bat an eye but I bet someone would have been all "WhAt AbOut eXtrA FEATS! The FigHtEr NeEds eXtRa fEAts!!" so they did that). And then the Cleric and Bard only have ONE attack cantrip! Great for diversity >< and let's not talk about the Ranger... Is the Champion even that popular aside from Multi-class shenanigans? MC-ing is not the end-all, be-all of customization because it's actually easy to mess it up with subpar builds that don't DO anything.

I would also argue the PHB Gish options still don't feel like proper fusion of Magic and Swordplay. They're just a guy with a sword who SOMETIMES uses spell with a free hand. SCAG cantrips were a much stronger foundation for a proper Gish.

So for some classes we really needed the extra touch of additional subclass. For others, sure they could have lasted longer without extra (why did the Wizard get EIGHT of 'em?!) but then it wouldn't feel that fair.

Plus, as I said... FUN!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

For dragonlance, I'm not sure I'd actually want to add in much of the way of subclasses, rather I'd use the various faction rules. A wizard on Krynn joining the wizards of High Sorcery would gain access to moon magic and could be any wizard subclass (though some subclasses would be restricted from joining the various orders, you wouldn't find a necromancer in the white robes for instance). As they climb higher in the ranks of the high sorcerers they might gain additional ways to harness the power of the moons or items of power related to the orders.

The Knights of Solamnia could also be a faction that allows you to join different orders as you gain reknown (from memory, something like that was a requirement in previous editions). Knights of Takhisis/Neraka would have special ranks for characters focused on martial, arcane, or divine power.

What are the faction rules you speak of that could grant actual special abilities such as moon magic?

 

[cbwjm]

What are the faction rules you speak of that could grant actual special abilities such as moon magic?

I'd expand them explictly for this purpose, in much the same way that the ravnica book expanded them granting additional spells to class spell lists.

Although I like seeing new subclasses, I often think that many are created that aren't really necessary. Because of that, I'd look at earlier editions for high sorcerers. You pass the test of high sorcery and join the order, you're now affected by the moons. I think Dragonlance would be a perfect setting for this.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'm still waiting for a "Lord of the Dance" for the Bard, a "Ghost Buster" for the Ranger, and a "Smooth Criminal" for the Rouge...

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'd expand them explictly for this purpose, in much the same way that the ravnica book expanded them granting additional spells to class spell lists.

Although I like seeing new subclasses, I often think that many are created that aren't really necessary. Because of that, I'd look at earlier editions for high sorcerers. You pass the test of high sorcery and join the order, you're now affected by the moons. I think Dragonlance would be a perfect setting for this.

Now that's interesting. Too bad I'm not really interested in Ravnica. The upcoming Eberron book seems theoretically interesting enough to me that I might get it. Maybe they've done something similar in it.